Wednesday, March 30, 2005
Christianity and Islam (1)
It is not religion; it’s the “religious”
Islam has been under much focus in the world following the surge of fundamentalism… and of course 9/11! Many atrocious acts have been committed in the name of Islam. Regular Islam has been said to encourage such behavior by nature of the religion. Regular Muslims who are in contact with other cultures have been mainly on the defensive, defending or justifying their faith. Muslims immersed in their own communities have been on the offensive, defending their faith against what they see as an organized onslaught. Much literature has been written on the subject.
Islam and Christianity
Comparisons between the various religions are almost always futile unless one is considering selecting one or the other, convincing reluctant impartial onlooker… or gathering support in preparation for a war of confrontation. It certainly is not an objective of this essay. I will approach the subject from a much simpler view and try to avoid dreary techno-religious details.
1. When I look at my own aging mother, who is a devout Muslim, I frankly see nothing wrong in her faith. It gives her tranquility, peace of mind, a constant, universal standard of right and wrong, a sense in life, a unified vision of the universe, an attitude towards other human beings, an assurance of her compassion towards the needy, the unfortunate and the suffering, rituals that put order in her life, emotional and spiritual fulfillment… and so on and so forth.
But I am sure that this description fits your own mother, grandmother or some gentle old Christian soul that you know.
2. Compare this image to those people with fiery eyes and long, unkempt beards, wielding swords and beheading ‘infidels’, declaring jihad [religious struggle] against decadence… and seeking to ‘convince’ people to live in bygone times, in the name of Islam.
Across the Atlantic, I am sure that you can also see men with fiery eyes and loud voices dripping venom, vindictiveness and hatred claiming to be the followers of loving, forgiving Jesus Christ…. advocating wars, justifying wars and glorifying the murder of innocents.
3. I also hear and read many criticisms of Islam and its incompatibility with democracy, science, free-speech, liberalism of thought, equal rights and personal freedoms. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don’t… But my mind goes back to the time when Christianity held sway over people’s (even king’s) lives in Europe and elsewhere.
I remember wars, crusades, where atrocities were committed and blood shed to liberate the birthplace of Christ from the hands of infidels. I remember the Spanish inquisition. I remember burning people alive at the stake under charges of witchcraft. I remember ‘official’ religious views that the earth is flat or is the center of the Universe; or poor Galileo. I remember book burning. I remember slave ships run by God-fearing Christians… and numerous other such things unacceptable to modern thinking.
Has Christianity or the teachings of Jesus changed much over the centuries? Neither has Islam or Mohamed’s teachings.
I am certain that this is not what these religions were intended for. Had this been the case, they wouldn’t have had so many willing followers in so many nations throughout many past centuries.
Everybody is innocent and everybody is guilty.
Hooligans are the problem, not football.
It is not the religion. It is some of the “religious”.
Islam has been under much focus in the world following the surge of fundamentalism… and of course 9/11! Many atrocious acts have been committed in the name of Islam. Regular Islam has been said to encourage such behavior by nature of the religion. Regular Muslims who are in contact with other cultures have been mainly on the defensive, defending or justifying their faith. Muslims immersed in their own communities have been on the offensive, defending their faith against what they see as an organized onslaught. Much literature has been written on the subject.
Islam and Christianity
Comparisons between the various religions are almost always futile unless one is considering selecting one or the other, convincing reluctant impartial onlooker… or gathering support in preparation for a war of confrontation. It certainly is not an objective of this essay. I will approach the subject from a much simpler view and try to avoid dreary techno-religious details.
1. When I look at my own aging mother, who is a devout Muslim, I frankly see nothing wrong in her faith. It gives her tranquility, peace of mind, a constant, universal standard of right and wrong, a sense in life, a unified vision of the universe, an attitude towards other human beings, an assurance of her compassion towards the needy, the unfortunate and the suffering, rituals that put order in her life, emotional and spiritual fulfillment… and so on and so forth.
But I am sure that this description fits your own mother, grandmother or some gentle old Christian soul that you know.
2. Compare this image to those people with fiery eyes and long, unkempt beards, wielding swords and beheading ‘infidels’, declaring jihad [religious struggle] against decadence… and seeking to ‘convince’ people to live in bygone times, in the name of Islam.
Across the Atlantic, I am sure that you can also see men with fiery eyes and loud voices dripping venom, vindictiveness and hatred claiming to be the followers of loving, forgiving Jesus Christ…. advocating wars, justifying wars and glorifying the murder of innocents.
3. I also hear and read many criticisms of Islam and its incompatibility with democracy, science, free-speech, liberalism of thought, equal rights and personal freedoms. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don’t… But my mind goes back to the time when Christianity held sway over people’s (even king’s) lives in Europe and elsewhere.
I remember wars, crusades, where atrocities were committed and blood shed to liberate the birthplace of Christ from the hands of infidels. I remember the Spanish inquisition. I remember burning people alive at the stake under charges of witchcraft. I remember ‘official’ religious views that the earth is flat or is the center of the Universe; or poor Galileo. I remember book burning. I remember slave ships run by God-fearing Christians… and numerous other such things unacceptable to modern thinking.
Has Christianity or the teachings of Jesus changed much over the centuries? Neither has Islam or Mohamed’s teachings.
I am certain that this is not what these religions were intended for. Had this been the case, they wouldn’t have had so many willing followers in so many nations throughout many past centuries.
Everybody is innocent and everybody is guilty.
Hooligans are the problem, not football.
It is not the religion. It is some of the “religious”.
# posted by Abu Khaleel @ 10:36 AM 
Comments:
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
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I can only speak for Christianity, which is the religion I have been exposed to ... and the Bible is full of contradictions and incitements to hate. I have no doubt that there are also similar passages in the Koran.
Yet ... there are reasonable people of both religions in the world. The key is in the interpretation of the text, and what one intends to do about that interpretation.
Anybody can pervert the most peaceful religion if they really want to.
--Bruno --
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Hello Abu Khaleel,
I know personally a few Christian 'religious fanatics'. For them, 'Christianity isn't everything, it's the only thing.' They're not talking about the substance of the religion, they are talking about the form of religion.' Here's the catch,
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
This can lead to the idea that if you want to believe, faith will be given to you and to believe you must continually repeat religious texts without attempting to understand them to increase your exposure. This simplistic idea leads to superficiality.
This is why fundamentalism, the first step in faith, is flooding a doubting world.
The Christian religion also puts an emphasis on responsibility and intelligently dealing with the world and this is where the fundamentalist invariably falls short.
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
Every believing adult has an obligation to accept the limitations of both their life and their faith.
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"Hello" Anon,
I find your point of "hearing and hearing" fascinating. It is exactly the same technique used by Taliban to teach their students. It is actually how Taliban came into being as a movement!!
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Charles,
Much of what you said in the first part of your comment is true, particularly regarding the involvement of Islam as a doctrine with more details of daily life.
But I have no idea how you can say "Islamic radicals can draw upon a wealth of words and deeds of the Prophet to justify slaughter, pillage, plunder, rape, torture...".
Perhaps you can go back to learn some more... using sources that are a bit more reliable (than MEMRI, for example)?
Your statement "Or perhaps Islam was perverted by the Prophet himself - or his followers " really does indicate that your learning so far leaves a lot to be desired.
Charles, I beg of you. This is not a Red-Blue debate. I have stressed several times that many people feel very strongly about their faith. Offending people is generally not conductive to constructive dialogue.
Can we have a civilized debate... without the propaganda? Please?
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From Circular
As a convinced unbeliever with no interest, historical or poetic, in any religion, I’m keeping right out of this.
(Not from any assumed sense of superiority, either - the supposedly non-religious, atheistical regimes of the USSR and Cambodia probably caused more human suffering last century than any religion ever did. I just have a profound lack of interest in supposed supernatural entities that everyone else talks so confidently about but which I have never known or experienced, and which I am very sceptical about to put it mildly.)
I gather Abu Kahleel is similarly sceptical if probably not to the same degree. With indications that religious fundamentalism or fanaticism is going to play an increasing role in the "new" Iraq - e.g. the assault on the students’ picnic in Basra last week, reported attacks on barbers and professional women in Baghdad, etc - I would be interested to know where this places him. In an Islamic country, does a profession of atheism or agnosticism place one at personal risk from extremists? (I presume, by way of contrast, that I could declare my atheism in the most primitive, bigoted township in the US mid-west, and while I might be treated as though I had just farted, I doubt that my life would be at risk. Probably a bit hard to get credit though.)
(I do hope this is not going to descend into a debate about which religion is "nicer," Islam or Christianity. I’ll definitely keep out of that - it will be like New Guinea highland cargo-cultists debating which fetish is most likely to bring back the supply planes of "him fella belong sky.")
Bruno talks above about "interpretation of the text." According to Deuteronomy, if I am fighting with another man, and my wife comes to help me, and seizes him by the private parts (!) then I have to cut off her hand - show her no pity!
Interpret that, mate!
Circular
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"Hooligans are the problem, not football." Nice comparison! (Although i still don't like soccer ;)
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Charles,
You really appear extremely poorly informed about the 'historical'Prophet Muhammed(there are few if any contemporary accounts of Jesus of any kind, by the way), who is certainly one of the most remarkable persons in human history aside from religious matters. You owe it to yourself ( and others) to read about his life, before even commenting again.
Here's a starter.
"At the conclusion of the life of Mahomet, it may perhaps be expected, that I should balance his faults and virtues, that I should decide whether the title of enthusiast or impostor more properly belongs to that extraordinary man. Had I been intimately conversant with the son of Abdallah, the task would still be difficult, and the success uncertain: at the distance of twelve centuries, I darkly contemplate his shade through a cloud of religious incense; and could I truly delineate the portrait of an hour, the fleeting resemblance would not equally apply to the solitary of Mount Hera, to the preacher of Mecca, and to the conqueror of Arabia. The author of a mighty revolution appears to have been endowed with a pious and contemplative disposition: so soon as marriage had raised him above the pressure of want, he avoided the paths of ambition and avarice; and till the age of forty he lived with innocence, and would have died without a name. The unity of God is an idea most congenial to nature and reason; and a slight conversation with the Jews and Christians would teach him to despise and detest the idolatry of Mecca. It was the duty of a man and a citizen to impart the doctrine of salvation, to rescue his country from the dominion of sin and error. The energy of a mind incessantly bent on the same object, would convert a general obligation into a particular call; the warm suggestions of the understanding or the fancy would be felt as the inspirations of Heaven; the labor of thought would expire in rapture and vision; and the inward sensation, the invisible monitor, would be described with the form and attributes of an angel of God. From enthusiasm to imposture, the step is perilous and slippery: the dæmon of Socrates affords a memorable instance, how a wise man may deceive himself, how a good man may deceive others, how the conscience may slumber in a mixed and middle state between self-illusion and voluntary fraud. Charity may believe that the original motives of Mahomet were those of pure and genuine benevolence; but a human missionary is incapable of cherishing the obstinate unbelievers who reject his claims despise his arguments, and persecute his life; he might forgive his personal adversaries, he may lawfully hate the enemies of God; the stern passions of pride and revenge were kindled in the bosom of Mahomet, and he sighed, like the prophet of Nineveh, for the destruction of the rebels whom he had condemned. The injustice of Mecca and the choice of Medina, transformed the citizen into a prince, the humble preacher into the leader of armies; but his sword was consecrated by the example of the saints; and the same God who afflicts a sinful world with pestilence and earthquakes, might inspire for their conversion or chastisement the valor of his servants. In the exercise of political government, he was compelled to abate of the stern rigor of fanaticism, to comply in some measure with the prejudices and passions of his followers, and to employ even the vices of mankind as the instruments of their salvation....Even in a conqueror or a priest, I can surprise a word or action of unaffected humanity; and the decree of Mahomet, that, in the sale of captives, the mothers should never be separated from their children, may suspend, or moderate, the censure of the historian." And there is much more.
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Chapter 50.
[One of the few remotely positive assessments of the 'great men' of history by an impartial and skeptical historian]
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Circular --
“Bruno talks above about "interpretation of the text." According to Deuteronomy, if I am fighting with another man, and my wife comes to help me, and seizes him by the private parts (!) then I have to cut off her hand - show her no pity! Interpret that, mate!”
Oooh, ah, ehm … your Bible must have a misprint.
No seriously, I’m also a horrible, nothing – believing atheist, and as a child, it was passages like this, and the contradictions they pose to modern morality, that convinced me that religion was a load of rubbish.
I say ‘contradiction’ in the sense that many Christians that I have debated on this subject explain these nasty passages away with the explanation that in the context OF THOSE TIMES punishments as detailed in Deuteronomy and so forth were really not so harsh, and in many cases kinder than what other peoples would have done. Now, to my mind that’s a fair enough explanation, BUT … if one then still wants to make the case that the Bible is the result of divine revelation and infallible … we have a small problem, because surely God – dictated laws like that should be eternally applicable?
So: is the Bible infallible or not? If it is, then Deuteronomy still applies. If it isn’t, then how can it be the word of God?
I’m sure that a similar case can be made for the Koran, given that I have seen various extracts quoted by rednecks (in an effort to show how backward Muslims are) that are pretty nasty too, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that their own religion contains similar passages in its central text.
Now, the trick is to ignore this contradiction and selectively decide which passages are “valid” and which passages are not. Hopefully one uses common sense to pick and choose, and that is what I mean by “interpreting the text” … basically this means the reader discarding undesirable passages through the application of logic and explanation, while forgetting that the entirety is supposed to be divinely inspired during this sifting process.
Now, a “good” person will concentrate on the “love and peace” aspects of the text, whereas a “bad” person might well dwell on the “punishment and power” aspects of the text … with each one simply ignoring / reasoning the undesirable bits out of existence.
And as we have all no doubt seen, the human mind can go to extreme lengths when trying to shield itself from reality.
--Bruno--
(grr. blogger has forgotten who I am ...)
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Hi Bruno,
I could be wrong because I have recently just gotten back to being Protestant but I thought that the Bible was not a divine revelation like the Qu'ran. I thought it was written by men who interpreted God's words.
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Charles,
Tabari, Bukhari and Ishaq were not contemporaries of Mohammed. Much of what they wrote is contested by a number of major Muslim sects.
You should have stuck to those quotes from the Koran.
It is increasingly evident that you do not seek to learn but that you have an undeclared agenda. To my mind, when someone's agenda is clean and straight, there would be no reason not to declare it.
During your evidently extensive searches, did you find those refernces to your rape and torture?
I do not think this site is the proper venue for your inclinations to compare between those two religions. There must be several hundred such sites representing a variety of view points some of them rather extreme. You may find better company there.
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Charles,
it sounds like you are trying to say that Islam is more militaristic than Christianity. Even if it does literally spell it out more in some Islamic texts, Christians took it on themselves to use God to champion military moves. (Also to get into politics.)
My personal favorite Saint,- Saint Joan of Arc had the words Jesus and Mary embroidered on her standard with the french fluer-de-lis.
So what is the difference between the two religions if believers on the one hand read military rules in a holy text or on the other hand if they interpret those rules themselves?
Matthew 10:34-35 says:
"Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother..."
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
skipping to the last stanza:
He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
The Battle Hymn of the Republic
Julia W. Howe 1861
I personally don't think it is wrong to take God into the battlefield with you. This is where Bruno's "...what one intends to do about that interpretation." becomes important.Ie. If you have a just cause and are an honorable soldier...
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I thought of something to add concerning "The Battle Hymn of the Republic."
Christians themselves have apparently been conflicted with the lyrics and whether it is man's duty to enter battle by the will of God or not.
The one verse has changed over time from being: "As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free" to:
"As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free".
Thus, moderate Christians have come to believe, as I'm sure moderate Muslims believe, battle is not always the holiest of choices. And the "battle" in my mind then becomes the struggle to live by example of ones beliefs.
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Charles,
I don't dig for quotes in the Quran as I found it rather hard to understand. Instead I decided to read about the life of the Prophet, a remarkable and humane man in the previously mentioned Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbon, a 'historian's' historian. I again invite you to get some 'perspective'BEFORE COMMENTING rather than charge in with some quotes. (I can do the same with your meek and mild Jesus-try Matthew
Matt. 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword.")
As to Jesus, the 4 Gospels( there is a 5th Gospel of Thomas which has been surpressed as heretical-it suggests Jesus was a ghost) were actually written down a century after the Crucifixion. The only contemporary account of Jesus I know of is in Flavius Josephus 'The Jewish War', which some scholars believe to have been tampered with by medieval monk translators and the next references is the accounts of Nero's persecution in Rome(Tacitus, Suetonius). The fact is there are almost no books that old that haven't turned to dust. The contrast is between the sketchy and contradictory Gospels and the well documented history of Muhammed. It is easier to write what you like about an unknown 'nobody' than the ruler of Arabia. I believe it is a contention of Islamic scholars that Christianity was largely made up by Saint Paul, who never knew Jesus in the flesh and introduced the trinty which they consider Greek polytheism as did many early Christians and today's Jehovah's Witnesses.
In the end, the choice is yours whether you want to open your mind or not. I suggest you give it a try.
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Charles,
I don't think Islam is a non-violent(therefore 'better') religion anymore than Christianity or Judaism(Charles..you non-violent? yeah that's what I call rich!:D). What would be better, to read the entire life of Christ or just chop it up into meaningless phrases and try to cobbel together a religion? Am I asking too much?
Jesus never 'authored' anything so it's not an apples to apples comparison of 'words', Quran to New Testament, but a parallel comparison of their vastly different lives may be instructive.
You seem to think that violence acts come from religious texts. You've heard the phrase 'Don't outlaw guns! Guns don't kill, people kill!'(Innocent guns?-killing is their only purpose)
Why don't you give religions the benefit of the doubt, especially as 'Thou shalt not kill' is written all over Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Not even the followers of Buddhism are free from violence.
"Are there any strong voices in Islam that are currently attending to these issues? Are they well received? Or threatened with death? Who are they? What are their names?" There are plenty of Muslim preachers who condemn Bin Ladin and you know it. You really look like a bigot( I mean that in a good way-NOT).
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Charles --
Your suggestion that Islam somehow has a seed of violence in it and that this is what marks it as different to Christianity is debatable. Straight off, the last time I checked, the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible and hence part of mainstream Christian thought. The Old Testament is filled with exhortations straight from God himself, (not to mention a plentitude of various Prophets) for vicarious and unrestrained violence. Really, some passages are pretty sick – indeed, they amount to incitement to genocide. Even the New Testament, as some commenters have pointed out, is not benign.
I’m not contesting the fact that there are similar violent passages to Islam.
What I AM saying though, is that the adherents of a faith choose whether that faith is peaceful or not. Quite frankly, the current “violence” that is being exhibited by Muslims is more a reflection of their political realities and their anger at being continually used as pawns in a greater game. The Islamisation of the violence is simply a reflection of that anger being transferred into religion by people who happen to be Muslim.
If texts alone were responsible for violence then Christians would be on a rampage, right? Yet most Christians I personally know are quite peaceful and mostly normal people.
--bruno--
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Charles,
If you visit MuslimWakeup.com you will run across a number of devout Muslims whose views are not represented by the texts you've quoted.
I recommend checking it out.
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
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Charles-
are you from New England or England? What American says "baddies"?
Or is this a term that has migrated across the pond?
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Absolutely, Bruno, I think we should read each others holy texts about Jesus. For Mohammad and Jesus were 1) related, 2) believed in learning, and,3) Mohammad himself believed in Jesus.
We of the faiths are creative thinkers in that we can make that "leap" -Jesus said: blessed is he who does not see but still believes.
I say that learning holy texts adds to our "quickening" or hyper-spirituality that is so amazing since the learning is a big cycle and the goodness of the texts embeds itself in you and you see nothing but the good in life, the positive.
With that I see only the positive outcome from learning from a brotherly religion to mine. As a matter of fact, I admire Osama Bin Laden's strident faith. I would hope he would at least think I was attempting mine in a good way.
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I got carried away with my own passion for the faith that I forgot to say that I believe also that God revealed Himself to different people at different times and in different ways.
Therefore, there must be a reason why God revealed what appears to be differing stories about Jesus to different people. For He is all-knowing. He can see beyond man's realm and knows what man needs. That is the beauty and that is the total generosity of the Almighty.
And I will stir things up by saying that I believe we could even combine the two religions and I hope that another prophet comes to do so-but that just may happen with the second coming!! And the people said:
Amen and Hallelujah!
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For anyone interested, if you have trouble reconciling the Bible with the Q'uran; or with how God could be such a seemingly merciless God or why bad things sometimes happen to good people, here are some words of encouragemnt:
Isaiah 55:8-9
(New Living Trans.)
"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the Lord. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine." For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Thus we cannot know all answers to seeming discrepencies.
and I ask myself why Jesus and Mohammad had to die the way they did as well as so many great human beings and I read:
Isaiah 57:1-2
The righteous pass away; the godly often die before their time. And no one seems to care or wonder why. No one seems to understand that God is protecting them from the evil to come. For the godly who die will rest in peace.
and lastly:
Isaiah 57: 16-18
For I will not fight against you forever; I will not always show my anger. If I did, all people would pass away--all the souls I have made. I was angry and punished these greedy people. I withdrew myself from them, but they went right on sinning. I have seen what they do, but I will heal them anyway! I will lead them and comfort those who mourn.
May the peace of the Prophets be with you.
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Amen, Abu Kahleel. It is not the religion, it is the "religious", as you say.
It is not Christianity that fosters the promiscuity and immorality that Iraq sees in America. That is the ways of the unbelievers. But unbelievers will usually identify with a religion, and think they are Christians or whatever their relatives are, even if they never go to church or pray, or read the Bible.
I don't think "Bruno" or "Anonymous" can speak for Christianity, as they are obviously not Christians. The Bible is not full of contradictions!! And the only incitements to hate are to hate evil. Islam and Christianity have the same roots. Our Old Testament, which is the larger part of our Bible, is the same as Muslims believe, beginning with Abraham. Where we split is with Jesus and Mohammed.
"You" think of Christians as promiscuous..."We" think of Muslims as possible terrorists.
I think of the ones who committed suicide attacks as extremely devout believers of Islam, who truly believed they were serving God and would be greatly rewarded by God. I try to imagine Jesus facing them at their deaths and telling them they have been decieved, and they are wrong in their beliefs. It seems terribly sad, and I wonder if Jesus will cast them into the lake of Fire, or somehow forgive them because they didn't know....?
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OK, Bruno....I hear you. However, try reading the Bible again, with a full understanding that things changed after Jesus died for the sins of the world, and all the rules and laws in the Old Testament were no longer necessary, and the new way to be found blameless in the eyes of God is just to accept Jesus as your 'Savior' - meaning He is the only thing needed to cleanse you from all unrighteousness - He did it by becoming the once and for all sacrifice presented by God for all the sins of the world, for suicide bombers, terrorists, everyone - 'The Lamb of God'...People sacrificed lambs; God sacrificed his son, Jesus. You don't become perfect, you become forgiven...and worthy to enter Paradise if you accept Salvation through Jesus Christ.
That is the only way to Heaven. It's easy. We serve a risen Savior. Mohammed's bones are in his tomb. Jesus left his tomb, he lives.
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(:0 ... :)
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This is tragic for you...someday we will all stand before Jesus - when you do, you won't be able to say you didn't know, and that nobody told you. God didn't skip over you.
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But Bruno can ask God's forgiveness at the last second before he dies and God can choose to forgive him. And judging by Bruno's humanity I think God has a place for him in His heart and in His Kingdom.
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From The Dialogue of the Savior:
7 "His discipl[es said, "Lord,] who is the one who seeks and[...]reveals?"
"[The Lord]sai[d to them,] "The one who seeks [is also the one who]reveals[...]."
Matt[hew said to him, "Lord, wh]en I [hear...] and [when] I speak, who is the one who [speaks, and who] the one who hears?"
The [Lord] said, "The one who speaks is also the one who h[ears], and the one who sees is also [the one who] reveals."
13 [Ma]ry asked her brothers, "Where will you set down [the things] about which you ask the son of [Adam]?"
The Lord [said] to her, "Sister, [no one] will be able to inquire about these things ex[cept one] who has a place to set them down in the heart."
14 [Matt]hew said, "Lord, I wish [to see] that place of life. [...] where there is no wickedness [but only] pure [li]ght."
4The Lord said, "Those who have known themselves have seen [it in] everything that is given them to do [for them]selves, and they have come to be [...]it in their goodn[ess]."
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I can only speak for Christianity, which is the religion I have been exposed to ... and the Bible is full of contradictions and incitements to hate. I have no doubt that there are also similar passages in the Koran.
Yet ... there are reasonable people of both religions in the world. The key is in the interpretation of the text, and what one intends to do about that interpretation.
Anybody can pervert the most peaceful religion if they really want to.
--Bruno --
# posted by 
: 30/3/05 4:09 PM
: 30/3/05 4:09 PM Hello Abu Khaleel,
I know personally a few Christian 'religious fanatics'. For them, 'Christianity isn't everything, it's the only thing.' They're not talking about the substance of the religion, they are talking about the form of religion.' Here's the catch,
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
This can lead to the idea that if you want to believe, faith will be given to you and to believe you must continually repeat religious texts without attempting to understand them to increase your exposure. This simplistic idea leads to superficiality.
This is why fundamentalism, the first step in faith, is flooding a doubting world.
The Christian religion also puts an emphasis on responsibility and intelligently dealing with the world and this is where the fundamentalist invariably falls short.
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
Every believing adult has an obligation to accept the limitations of both their life and their faith.
# posted by : 30/3/05 6:05 PM
: 30/3/05 6:05 PM "Hello" Anon,
I find your point of "hearing and hearing" fascinating. It is exactly the same technique used by Taliban to teach their students. It is actually how Taliban came into being as a movement!!
Charles,
Much of what you said in the first part of your comment is true, particularly regarding the involvement of Islam as a doctrine with more details of daily life.
But I have no idea how you can say "Islamic radicals can draw upon a wealth of words and deeds of the Prophet to justify slaughter, pillage, plunder, rape, torture...".
Perhaps you can go back to learn some more... using sources that are a bit more reliable (than MEMRI, for example)?
Your statement "Or perhaps Islam was perverted by the Prophet himself - or his followers " really does indicate that your learning so far leaves a lot to be desired.
Charles, I beg of you. This is not a Red-Blue debate. I have stressed several times that many people feel very strongly about their faith. Offending people is generally not conductive to constructive dialogue.
Can we have a civilized debate... without the propaganda? Please?
From Circular
As a convinced unbeliever with no interest, historical or poetic, in any religion, I’m keeping right out of this.
(Not from any assumed sense of superiority, either - the supposedly non-religious, atheistical regimes of the USSR and Cambodia probably caused more human suffering last century than any religion ever did. I just have a profound lack of interest in supposed supernatural entities that everyone else talks so confidently about but which I have never known or experienced, and which I am very sceptical about to put it mildly.)
I gather Abu Kahleel is similarly sceptical if probably not to the same degree. With indications that religious fundamentalism or fanaticism is going to play an increasing role in the "new" Iraq - e.g. the assault on the students’ picnic in Basra last week, reported attacks on barbers and professional women in Baghdad, etc - I would be interested to know where this places him. In an Islamic country, does a profession of atheism or agnosticism place one at personal risk from extremists? (I presume, by way of contrast, that I could declare my atheism in the most primitive, bigoted township in the US mid-west, and while I might be treated as though I had just farted, I doubt that my life would be at risk. Probably a bit hard to get credit though.)
(I do hope this is not going to descend into a debate about which religion is "nicer," Islam or Christianity. I’ll definitely keep out of that - it will be like New Guinea highland cargo-cultists debating which fetish is most likely to bring back the supply planes of "him fella belong sky.")
Bruno talks above about "interpretation of the text." According to Deuteronomy, if I am fighting with another man, and my wife comes to help me, and seizes him by the private parts (!) then I have to cut off her hand - show her no pity!
Interpret that, mate!
Circular
# posted by : 31/3/05 3:07 AM
: 31/3/05 3:07 AM "Hooligans are the problem, not football." Nice comparison! (Although i still don't like soccer ;)
Charles,
You really appear extremely poorly informed about the 'historical'Prophet Muhammed(there are few if any contemporary accounts of Jesus of any kind, by the way), who is certainly one of the most remarkable persons in human history aside from religious matters. You owe it to yourself ( and others) to read about his life, before even commenting again.
Here's a starter.
"At the conclusion of the life of Mahomet, it may perhaps be expected, that I should balance his faults and virtues, that I should decide whether the title of enthusiast or impostor more properly belongs to that extraordinary man. Had I been intimately conversant with the son of Abdallah, the task would still be difficult, and the success uncertain: at the distance of twelve centuries, I darkly contemplate his shade through a cloud of religious incense; and could I truly delineate the portrait of an hour, the fleeting resemblance would not equally apply to the solitary of Mount Hera, to the preacher of Mecca, and to the conqueror of Arabia. The author of a mighty revolution appears to have been endowed with a pious and contemplative disposition: so soon as marriage had raised him above the pressure of want, he avoided the paths of ambition and avarice; and till the age of forty he lived with innocence, and would have died without a name. The unity of God is an idea most congenial to nature and reason; and a slight conversation with the Jews and Christians would teach him to despise and detest the idolatry of Mecca. It was the duty of a man and a citizen to impart the doctrine of salvation, to rescue his country from the dominion of sin and error. The energy of a mind incessantly bent on the same object, would convert a general obligation into a particular call; the warm suggestions of the understanding or the fancy would be felt as the inspirations of Heaven; the labor of thought would expire in rapture and vision; and the inward sensation, the invisible monitor, would be described with the form and attributes of an angel of God. From enthusiasm to imposture, the step is perilous and slippery: the dæmon of Socrates affords a memorable instance, how a wise man may deceive himself, how a good man may deceive others, how the conscience may slumber in a mixed and middle state between self-illusion and voluntary fraud. Charity may believe that the original motives of Mahomet were those of pure and genuine benevolence; but a human missionary is incapable of cherishing the obstinate unbelievers who reject his claims despise his arguments, and persecute his life; he might forgive his personal adversaries, he may lawfully hate the enemies of God; the stern passions of pride and revenge were kindled in the bosom of Mahomet, and he sighed, like the prophet of Nineveh, for the destruction of the rebels whom he had condemned. The injustice of Mecca and the choice of Medina, transformed the citizen into a prince, the humble preacher into the leader of armies; but his sword was consecrated by the example of the saints; and the same God who afflicts a sinful world with pestilence and earthquakes, might inspire for their conversion or chastisement the valor of his servants. In the exercise of political government, he was compelled to abate of the stern rigor of fanaticism, to comply in some measure with the prejudices and passions of his followers, and to employ even the vices of mankind as the instruments of their salvation....Even in a conqueror or a priest, I can surprise a word or action of unaffected humanity; and the decree of Mahomet, that, in the sale of captives, the mothers should never be separated from their children, may suspend, or moderate, the censure of the historian." And there is much more.
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Chapter 50.
[One of the few remotely positive assessments of the 'great men' of history by an impartial and skeptical historian]
# posted by : 1/4/05 4:11 AM
: 1/4/05 4:11 AM Circular --
“Bruno talks above about "interpretation of the text." According to Deuteronomy, if I am fighting with another man, and my wife comes to help me, and seizes him by the private parts (!) then I have to cut off her hand - show her no pity! Interpret that, mate!”
Oooh, ah, ehm … your Bible must have a misprint.
No seriously, I’m also a horrible, nothing – believing atheist, and as a child, it was passages like this, and the contradictions they pose to modern morality, that convinced me that religion was a load of rubbish.
I say ‘contradiction’ in the sense that many Christians that I have debated on this subject explain these nasty passages away with the explanation that in the context OF THOSE TIMES punishments as detailed in Deuteronomy and so forth were really not so harsh, and in many cases kinder than what other peoples would have done. Now, to my mind that’s a fair enough explanation, BUT … if one then still wants to make the case that the Bible is the result of divine revelation and infallible … we have a small problem, because surely God – dictated laws like that should be eternally applicable?
So: is the Bible infallible or not? If it is, then Deuteronomy still applies. If it isn’t, then how can it be the word of God?
I’m sure that a similar case can be made for the Koran, given that I have seen various extracts quoted by rednecks (in an effort to show how backward Muslims are) that are pretty nasty too, while simultaneously ignoring the fact that their own religion contains similar passages in its central text.
Now, the trick is to ignore this contradiction and selectively decide which passages are “valid” and which passages are not. Hopefully one uses common sense to pick and choose, and that is what I mean by “interpreting the text” … basically this means the reader discarding undesirable passages through the application of logic and explanation, while forgetting that the entirety is supposed to be divinely inspired during this sifting process.
Now, a “good” person will concentrate on the “love and peace” aspects of the text, whereas a “bad” person might well dwell on the “punishment and power” aspects of the text … with each one simply ignoring / reasoning the undesirable bits out of existence.
And as we have all no doubt seen, the human mind can go to extreme lengths when trying to shield itself from reality.
--Bruno--
(grr. blogger has forgotten who I am ...)
# posted by : 1/4/05 10:01 AM
: 1/4/05 10:01 AM Hi Bruno,
I could be wrong because I have recently just gotten back to being Protestant but I thought that the Bible was not a divine revelation like the Qu'ran. I thought it was written by men who interpreted God's words.
# posted by : 1/4/05 5:03 PM
: 1/4/05 5:03 PM Charles,
Tabari, Bukhari and Ishaq were not contemporaries of Mohammed. Much of what they wrote is contested by a number of major Muslim sects.
You should have stuck to those quotes from the Koran.
It is increasingly evident that you do not seek to learn but that you have an undeclared agenda. To my mind, when someone's agenda is clean and straight, there would be no reason not to declare it.
During your evidently extensive searches, did you find those refernces to your rape and torture?
I do not think this site is the proper venue for your inclinations to compare between those two religions. There must be several hundred such sites representing a variety of view points some of them rather extreme. You may find better company there.
Charles,
it sounds like you are trying to say that Islam is more militaristic than Christianity. Even if it does literally spell it out more in some Islamic texts, Christians took it on themselves to use God to champion military moves. (Also to get into politics.)
My personal favorite Saint,- Saint Joan of Arc had the words Jesus and Mary embroidered on her standard with the french fluer-de-lis.
So what is the difference between the two religions if believers on the one hand read military rules in a holy text or on the other hand if they interpret those rules themselves?
Matthew 10:34-35 says:
"Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother..."
Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword;
His truth is marching on.
I have seen Him in the watch fires of a hundred circling camps
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps;
His day is marching on.
skipping to the last stanza:
He is coming like the glory of the morning on the wave,
He is wisdom to the mighty, He is honor to the brave;
So the world shall be His footstool, and the soul of wrong His slave,
Our God is marching on.
The Battle Hymn of the Republic
Julia W. Howe 1861
I personally don't think it is wrong to take God into the battlefield with you. This is where Bruno's "...what one intends to do about that interpretation." becomes important.Ie. If you have a just cause and are an honorable soldier...
# posted by : 2/4/05 9:38 PM
: 2/4/05 9:38 PM I thought of something to add concerning "The Battle Hymn of the Republic."
Christians themselves have apparently been conflicted with the lyrics and whether it is man's duty to enter battle by the will of God or not.
The one verse has changed over time from being: "As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free" to:
"As He died to make men holy, let us live to make men free".
Thus, moderate Christians have come to believe, as I'm sure moderate Muslims believe, battle is not always the holiest of choices. And the "battle" in my mind then becomes the struggle to live by example of ones beliefs.
# posted by : 2/4/05 10:45 PM
: 2/4/05 10:45 PM Charles,
I don't dig for quotes in the Quran as I found it rather hard to understand. Instead I decided to read about the life of the Prophet, a remarkable and humane man in the previously mentioned Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Gibbon, a 'historian's' historian. I again invite you to get some 'perspective'BEFORE COMMENTING rather than charge in with some quotes. (I can do the same with your meek and mild Jesus-try Matthew
Matt. 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth, but a sword.")
As to Jesus, the 4 Gospels( there is a 5th Gospel of Thomas which has been surpressed as heretical-it suggests Jesus was a ghost) were actually written down a century after the Crucifixion. The only contemporary account of Jesus I know of is in Flavius Josephus 'The Jewish War', which some scholars believe to have been tampered with by medieval monk translators and the next references is the accounts of Nero's persecution in Rome(Tacitus, Suetonius). The fact is there are almost no books that old that haven't turned to dust. The contrast is between the sketchy and contradictory Gospels and the well documented history of Muhammed. It is easier to write what you like about an unknown 'nobody' than the ruler of Arabia. I believe it is a contention of Islamic scholars that Christianity was largely made up by Saint Paul, who never knew Jesus in the flesh and introduced the trinty which they consider Greek polytheism as did many early Christians and today's Jehovah's Witnesses.
In the end, the choice is yours whether you want to open your mind or not. I suggest you give it a try.
# posted by : 3/4/05 1:51 AM
: 3/4/05 1:51 AM Charles,
I don't think Islam is a non-violent(therefore 'better') religion anymore than Christianity or Judaism(Charles..you non-violent? yeah that's what I call rich!:D). What would be better, to read the entire life of Christ or just chop it up into meaningless phrases and try to cobbel together a religion? Am I asking too much?
Jesus never 'authored' anything so it's not an apples to apples comparison of 'words', Quran to New Testament, but a parallel comparison of their vastly different lives may be instructive.
You seem to think that violence acts come from religious texts. You've heard the phrase 'Don't outlaw guns! Guns don't kill, people kill!'(Innocent guns?-killing is their only purpose)
Why don't you give religions the benefit of the doubt, especially as 'Thou shalt not kill' is written all over Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Not even the followers of Buddhism are free from violence.
"Are there any strong voices in Islam that are currently attending to these issues? Are they well received? Or threatened with death? Who are they? What are their names?" There are plenty of Muslim preachers who condemn Bin Ladin and you know it. You really look like a bigot( I mean that in a good way-NOT).
# posted by : 4/4/05 10:24 PM
: 4/4/05 10:24 PM Charles --
Your suggestion that Islam somehow has a seed of violence in it and that this is what marks it as different to Christianity is debatable. Straight off, the last time I checked, the Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible and hence part of mainstream Christian thought. The Old Testament is filled with exhortations straight from God himself, (not to mention a plentitude of various Prophets) for vicarious and unrestrained violence. Really, some passages are pretty sick – indeed, they amount to incitement to genocide. Even the New Testament, as some commenters have pointed out, is not benign.
I’m not contesting the fact that there are similar violent passages to Islam.
What I AM saying though, is that the adherents of a faith choose whether that faith is peaceful or not. Quite frankly, the current “violence” that is being exhibited by Muslims is more a reflection of their political realities and their anger at being continually used as pawns in a greater game. The Islamisation of the violence is simply a reflection of that anger being transferred into religion by people who happen to be Muslim.
If texts alone were responsible for violence then Christians would be on a rampage, right? Yet most Christians I personally know are quite peaceful and mostly normal people.
--bruno--
# posted by : 5/4/05 10:10 AM
: 5/4/05 10:10 AM Charles,
If you visit MuslimWakeup.com you will run across a number of devout Muslims whose views are not represented by the texts you've quoted.
I recommend checking it out.
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
Charles-
are you from New England or England? What American says "baddies"?
Or is this a term that has migrated across the pond?
# posted by : 6/4/05 9:49 PM
: 6/4/05 9:49 PM Absolutely, Bruno, I think we should read each others holy texts about Jesus. For Mohammad and Jesus were 1) related, 2) believed in learning, and,3) Mohammad himself believed in Jesus.
We of the faiths are creative thinkers in that we can make that "leap" -Jesus said: blessed is he who does not see but still believes.
I say that learning holy texts adds to our "quickening" or hyper-spirituality that is so amazing since the learning is a big cycle and the goodness of the texts embeds itself in you and you see nothing but the good in life, the positive.
With that I see only the positive outcome from learning from a brotherly religion to mine. As a matter of fact, I admire Osama Bin Laden's strident faith. I would hope he would at least think I was attempting mine in a good way.
# posted by : 7/4/05 6:54 PM
: 7/4/05 6:54 PM I got carried away with my own passion for the faith that I forgot to say that I believe also that God revealed Himself to different people at different times and in different ways.
Therefore, there must be a reason why God revealed what appears to be differing stories about Jesus to different people. For He is all-knowing. He can see beyond man's realm and knows what man needs. That is the beauty and that is the total generosity of the Almighty.
And I will stir things up by saying that I believe we could even combine the two religions and I hope that another prophet comes to do so-but that just may happen with the second coming!! And the people said:
Amen and Hallelujah!
# posted by : 7/4/05 7:14 PM
: 7/4/05 7:14 PM For anyone interested, if you have trouble reconciling the Bible with the Q'uran; or with how God could be such a seemingly merciless God or why bad things sometimes happen to good people, here are some words of encouragemnt:
Isaiah 55:8-9
(New Living Trans.)
"My thoughts are completely different from yours," says the Lord. "And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine." For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Thus we cannot know all answers to seeming discrepencies.
and I ask myself why Jesus and Mohammad had to die the way they did as well as so many great human beings and I read:
Isaiah 57:1-2
The righteous pass away; the godly often die before their time. And no one seems to care or wonder why. No one seems to understand that God is protecting them from the evil to come. For the godly who die will rest in peace.
and lastly:
Isaiah 57: 16-18
For I will not fight against you forever; I will not always show my anger. If I did, all people would pass away--all the souls I have made. I was angry and punished these greedy people. I withdrew myself from them, but they went right on sinning. I have seen what they do, but I will heal them anyway! I will lead them and comfort those who mourn.
May the peace of the Prophets be with you.
# posted by : 8/4/05 7:02 PM
: 8/4/05 7:02 PM Amen, Abu Kahleel. It is not the religion, it is the "religious", as you say.
It is not Christianity that fosters the promiscuity and immorality that Iraq sees in America. That is the ways of the unbelievers. But unbelievers will usually identify with a religion, and think they are Christians or whatever their relatives are, even if they never go to church or pray, or read the Bible.
I don't think "Bruno" or "Anonymous" can speak for Christianity, as they are obviously not Christians. The Bible is not full of contradictions!! And the only incitements to hate are to hate evil. Islam and Christianity have the same roots. Our Old Testament, which is the larger part of our Bible, is the same as Muslims believe, beginning with Abraham. Where we split is with Jesus and Mohammed.
"You" think of Christians as promiscuous..."We" think of Muslims as possible terrorists.
I think of the ones who committed suicide attacks as extremely devout believers of Islam, who truly believed they were serving God and would be greatly rewarded by God. I try to imagine Jesus facing them at their deaths and telling them they have been decieved, and they are wrong in their beliefs. It seems terribly sad, and I wonder if Jesus will cast them into the lake of Fire, or somehow forgive them because they didn't know....?
# posted by : 11/4/05 9:19 AM
: 11/4/05 9:19 AM OK, Bruno....I hear you. However, try reading the Bible again, with a full understanding that things changed after Jesus died for the sins of the world, and all the rules and laws in the Old Testament were no longer necessary, and the new way to be found blameless in the eyes of God is just to accept Jesus as your 'Savior' - meaning He is the only thing needed to cleanse you from all unrighteousness - He did it by becoming the once and for all sacrifice presented by God for all the sins of the world, for suicide bombers, terrorists, everyone - 'The Lamb of God'...People sacrificed lambs; God sacrificed his son, Jesus. You don't become perfect, you become forgiven...and worthy to enter Paradise if you accept Salvation through Jesus Christ.
That is the only way to Heaven. It's easy. We serve a risen Savior. Mohammed's bones are in his tomb. Jesus left his tomb, he lives.
# posted by : 12/4/05 10:27 AM
: 12/4/05 10:27 AM (:0 ... :)
# posted by : 13/4/05 3:48 PM
: 13/4/05 3:48 PM This is tragic for you...someday we will all stand before Jesus - when you do, you won't be able to say you didn't know, and that nobody told you. God didn't skip over you.
# posted by : 15/4/05 9:06 AM
: 15/4/05 9:06 AM But Bruno can ask God's forgiveness at the last second before he dies and God can choose to forgive him. And judging by Bruno's humanity I think God has a place for him in His heart and in His Kingdom.
# posted by : 15/4/05 4:39 PM
: 15/4/05 4:39 PM From The Dialogue of the Savior:
7 "His discipl[es said, "Lord,] who is the one who seeks and[...]reveals?"
"[The Lord]sai[d to them,] "The one who seeks [is also the one who]reveals[...]."
Matt[hew said to him, "Lord, wh]en I [hear...] and [when] I speak, who is the one who [speaks, and who] the one who hears?"
The [Lord] said, "The one who speaks is also the one who h[ears], and the one who sees is also [the one who] reveals."
13 [Ma]ry asked her brothers, "Where will you set down [the things] about which you ask the son of [Adam]?"
The Lord [said] to her, "Sister, [no one] will be able to inquire about these things ex[cept one] who has a place to set them down in the heart."
14 [Matt]hew said, "Lord, I wish [to see] that place of life. [...] where there is no wickedness [but only] pure [li]ght."
4The Lord said, "Those who have known themselves have seen [it in] everything that is given them to do [for them]selves, and they have come to be [...]it in their goodn[ess]."
# posted by : 25/4/05 9:08 PM
: 25/4/05 9:08 PM << Home
