Monday, October 18, 2004

 

Compassion


To those few who have no capacity to feel the pain and suffering for others…

I have generally refrained form responding to your abuse and dismissive disregard for the suffering of people or the lives of little children, but I will now allow myself this little rebuke:

If you require innocent victims to have a certain nationality to be worthy of your empathy, there is something wrong with your humanity.

***


I cry in passion
I yell to the void
To people devoid
Of all compassion

I holler in vain
A plea to reason
It is not treason
To be humane

It is not insane
Or out of season
You need no reason
To be humane


Comments:

I sit in one of the dives
On Fifty-second Street
Uncertain and afraid
As the clever hopes expire
Of a low dishonest decade:
Waves of anger and fear
Circulate over the bright
And darkened lands of the earth,
Obsessing our private lives;
The unmentionable odour of death
Offends the September night

..............

Defenseless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame.

W.H. Auden September 1st, 1939
 
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Same poem, even more to the point.

I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.
 
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I'm not sure I am getting your point here. Are you saying that the "resistance" are justified in blowing up Iraqi children because the US has killed innocents??

Look at this post from Road of a Nation:

"here we go
idiot muslims attaking 5 churches in baghdad yesteday killing tent of people on the first day of ramadan
they are forcing us to wear the scarf or the vail on our heads in AL mosel state and forcing others to leave there places.
they are killing us we are the manority in iraq we are only 700,000 christians in iraq afte we were the original owners of iraq before islam invated us .
45000 people left iraq since the last attak in iraq for the churches
and today another attack and every day there is many attakes against christians in iraq forcing them to be muslim or get killed
we need help here
no body know about that
no body here about that
we need help
please yor voice in the states to help the christians of iraq and to protect us
gbu all americans
tania | Email | Homepage | 10.17.04 - 4:07 am | # "

I can't vouch for the authenticity of this comment but is this the "resistance" that you support??
 
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Indeed.
How does the coverage of the Beslan massacre on Al Jazerra compare to that of the Iraqi boy who lost his arms during the war last year?
 
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Please let "decent Americans" know how to help, besides in our prayers.

Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to get any real information through our biased media. And this is especially true now, while two privileged white men fight over who will be the next president.

May the Supreme Being watch over all nations, and especially the children of all nations.
 
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Hi Abu, Circular here.

I'm updating from two Blogs ago, Security and Freedom, thank you very much for your answer to my question. I think you should move the question and answer to this most recent Blog. Those figures are terrifying. You seem to be saying, "Brother, you ain't seen nothing yet."

So here's a related question: what happens if, as has been suggested, the Imams or Mullahs or whoever (please excuse my ignorance of Islam) finally do declare a Jihad? Sunni only? Sunni and Shia? How much worse would that make things?

BTW, did you like my quotes from the Auden poem? He seemed in the last verse to almost be talking about Blogs, 60 years ago.

I think people like you are really making a difference.
 
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Abu,

I agree with Circular, thanks for the updates and quite honestly I am not surprised by those numbers.

The question is, what do we do? How do we seperate the "dark forces" and criminals from the nationalists while trying not to kill innocents? Is there some way we can bring the nationalists into the political process to truly help the country while wiping out the "bad guys"??

My other question is: Are the nationalists and/or Baathists really fighting for Iraq or their version of Iraq?

Please don't take this as criticizm but you keep asking questions but I rarely see you voice your opinion or offer any suggestions. Or are you of the view that we should just get out?

Thanks,
 
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Barry,

From reading Abu Khaleel's other posts, and from reading the posts of people like Riverbend and the Jarrar family, the people who target the Christians of Iraq are at least as much of an offense to them as the Ku Klux Klanners are to the average American.

It is probable that many of those targetting the Christians are also targetting the Iraqi intellectuals. Others are probably targetting the Christians because they view them as collaborators.

Several groups would see the local Chaldo-Assyrian community as a natural enemy.
1) Radical Islamists
a) Shiite
i Badr's gang (connected with SCIRI)
ii Al Sadr's followers
b) Salafi/Wahabi/Qutby... (however you want to call them)
i Tawhid waJihad (Zarqawi's group)
ii Smaller allies and rivals to AlQaeda
2) Ba'athists
3) Anti-American non-Baathists
4) Arabic racists (Assyrians and Chaldeans [or Chaldo-Assyrians] are not Arabs, but mostly descendents of the ancient Assyrians.)
5) Kurdish extremists (who want to appropriate Chaldo-Assyrian lands and villages for themselves, and have been doing so for over 100 years)

Be Well,
 
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Bob,

Thanks for the response but that still doesn't answer my question about how we get after the "bad guys" and get some reconstruction/re-building done and get Iraq moving forward.

There is a similar discussion going on on The MessopotamianI realize that many are going to hate us regardless and I can live with that as I understand it but I would still like to see a peaceful and prosperous Iraq.
 
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Circular (and others),

Thank you for the quote from the Audin poem. I enjoyed it very much. My simple lines look pale in comparison.

As to those figures, I didn't really mean to say "Brother, you ain't seen nothing yet." but rather that I don't really understand why US officials are consistent in giving gross under-estimates. Is it lack of intelligence, or government policy (as part of the rosy picture)? It never pays to under-estimate your adversary.

Your comment and this link: ( Security of Freedom?) should be sufficient to allow those interested to have a look.

I regret to have to leave the question of religion until after we discuss the possible solutions to the present mess – which I'm starting with the next post. But I have already promised to discuss it as soon as possible after that.

By the way, I have no idea why the question of churches and Christians popped up in this post. Anyway, I have already posted something about this subject ( It is Christians Now) on it if anyone is interested.

Barry, my previous posts have some answers to some of your questions. The main thing that you need to know is that all your tanks and all your planes cannot get rid of the "bad guys". The Iraqi people can... through democracy. Democracy not cronycracy. The cowboy mentality of "kill 'em all will not work". The solution has to be political. I will start discussing these issues next.
 
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From Circular

Thanks Abu. Actually when you say "the solution has to be political" this could be taken as a reference to the U.S. election, and that’s only two weeks away now. (Doesn’t time fly when you’re having fun!)
I think it’s becoming clear that this will be a watershed for the world and for Iraq. If Kerry gets in, there may be a chance for a gradual return to international sanity. If Bush is re-elected, he and his cronies will take it as an endorsement of their bullying approach, and that will be the end for Iraq, and bad news for the rest of us.
(And also for guys like Andy - I’d give it six months before there’s a knock on the door in the middle of the night, and it’s off to a camp for a little re-education in Patriotism.)

To Barry: you’ve become suspiciously moderate all of a sudden - I hope you haven’t been ingesting a controlled substance?
Seriously though, I think we should be able to agree on two propositions.
1) There’s not much point at this stage in arguing about the rights and wrongs of the original invasion - it’s done and can’t be undone. And even the worst of us pinko leftist liberal pukes have never suggested that George should say to Saddam, "Oops, sorry, no WMD, better give you your dictatorship back."
2) The real issue is the aftermath - I think you admitted a few days ago that this had been mishandled. Basically because Rummy proved the generals wrong when he got away with "Invasion-Lite:" so he thought he could get away with "Occupation-Lite." As Abu’s figures show, this was not one of Rummy’s brightest ideas. So the question is: can the occupation be salvaged at this late stage? My guess is no, but maybe a new guy (Kerry) can come up with something. Your guess, I guess, is stay with the same team, and keep on bombing. I must admit that this sounds a bit like "Keep the Board of Directors on, even though they decided to invest the firm’s entire pension fund in Enron." Your answer?
3) Related to which, the fuss over whether the Brits should join in up north is interesting.
Figures from icasualties.org:
Fatal casualties during invasion:
Yanks 139 Brits 33
Fatal casualties, May 83 to June 94
Yanks 715 Brits 27
Fatal casualties since June 94
Yanks 248 Brits 8
Does this suggest that one lot of occupiers are a LOT more hated than the other? Wonder why?
 
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Circular,

Look, believe it or not I have always been moderate (I am registered non-partisan) but some days I get very frustrated when the US is seen as the Great Satan (especially by those living here) when we have done so much for so many.

Are we perfect, no. Do we make aggregious mistakes at times, yes. But I think (hope) that most of us want people to have the same opportunities we have. That doesn't mean that they must have an American style democracy but hopefully they can have some semblence of freedom.

As for the current US election, quite frankly it sucks. Yes, I think things have been mishandled after the fact and I'm not overly excited about 4 more years of the current administration. However, I am VERY afraid of a Kerry/Edwards administration. As for the casualty figures, I can't say for sure if it is their handling of the affair or if it is just a geographical issue. Maybe we are posted in "hotter" spots of resistance?

Abu,

I have never said we should use a "kill 'em all" approach but how can a democratic process even happen if people are being executed just for "helping the occupiers"??
 
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From Circular

Well that's the whole point I've been trying to make, Barry. (And I think what Abu has been saying.) Doubtless parts of the North were a bit tougher to pacify initially but look at the huge discrepency in the casualty figures: surely the only conclusion is that it's your tactics that have made them hotter? (Collateral damage, failure to work with the local leadership, failure to get reconstruction going properly, etc.)
And who bears ultimate resposibility for these tactics and failures: isn't it the Commander-in-Chief? And his deputies?
I had a look at The Mesopotamian. Certainly there's an attempt at a constructive outlook over there (though I did see one poster refer to "that bitch Riverbend," which sort of took my breath away) but I wonder whether its too late for the sort of hope they have.
 
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Circular,

I don't know. Certainly it is plausible to reach that conclusion but one could also say that the "resistence" is fiercer around the Sunni Triangle, etc.

Bahh, I don't know, even reading different blogs I get different views so who can really say..??
 
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Hello Barry(BPS)?,

"Look, believe it or not I have always been moderate (I am registered non-partisan) but some days I get very frustrated when the US is seen as the Great Satan (especially by those living here) when we have done so much for so many."
You don't sound moderate, and believe it or not I don't trust you. If you believe in Iraq, you should favor peace and reconcilitation and not killing.

"Are we perfect, no. Do we make aggregious mistakes at times, yes. But I think (hope) that most of us want people to have the same opportunities we have."
That's not what Bush says. This just sounds phoney.
"That doesn't mean that they must have an American style democracy but hopefully they can have some semblence of freedom."
They has some freedom now, but lack peace. You want a war to destroy Al Qaeda. Give up your war and let Iraqis sort it out.

"As for the current US election, quite frankly it sucks. Yes, I think things have been mishandled after the fact and I'm not overly excited about 4 more years of the current administration."
[Sounds reasonable (but here comes the pitch..)] However, I am VERY afraid of a Kerry/Edwards administration.
('Why? Because he's SKERRRRY,that's why'-BARRRRRY,you're as dumb as Bush)
"As for the casualty figures, I can't say for sure if it is their handling of the affair or if it is just a geographical issue. Maybe we are posted in "hotter" spots of resistance?"
A mere technicality, Barry? So everything is on track and under control(no need for a change)?

"I have never said we should use a "kill 'em all" approach but how can a democratic process even happen if people are being executed just for "helping the occupiers"??"
Reaaaaasonable again! You don't have the right to kill even one Iraq, Barry. Get it??
 
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('Why? Because he's SKERRRRY,that's why'-BARRRRRY,you're as dumb as Bush).

Wow, talk about a pot calling the kettle black.
 
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"You don't sound moderate, and believe it or not I don't trust you."

Well considering that you are anonymous I don't care if you trust me or not.

"If you believe in Iraq, you should favor peace and reconcilitation and not killing."

I do favor peace, unfortunately I don't think it's possible without some element of violence. I wish it weren't true but that seems to be the reality.

"That's not what Bush says. This just sounds phoney."

Who cares what Bush says, I am not him.


"They has some freedom now, but lack peace. You want a war to destroy Al Qaeda. Give up your war and let Iraqis sort it out."

Sorry, I don't buy that.


"[Sounds reasonable (but here comes the pitch..)] However, I am VERY afraid of a Kerry/Edwards administration.
('Why? Because he's SKERRRRY,that's why'-BARRRRRY,you're as dumb as Bush)"

Well first of all, Bush isn't as ignorant as you people think. Secondly becase Kerry is a traitor and a man of no conviction. Had it been Liberman or another candidate it might be different. (Of course that wouldn't have worked either because it would just prove that the Jews/Zionists run the US now right??)


"A mere technicality, Barry? So everything is on track and under control(no need for a change)? "

Who said that? Not me. However, Kerry going groveling to the corrupt UN and the French isn't exactly my idea of a change for the better.


"Reaaaaasonable again! You don't have the right to kill even one Iraq, Barry. Get it??"

No but your "friends" do? How many Iraqi's have died at the hands of other Iraqi's these days?

And yes, Barry == Barry PajamaSalami
 
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There are proportionately more American casualties than British casualties because the Islamists (and their tacit supporters) are using Iraq as a proxy war against America, not Britain. Killing the Brits is tangential to their main goal. It is the US, not Britain, which is the target of anti-American rhetoric on Al-Jazeera. It is the US, not Britain which is regarded as the "Great Satan". That language encourages greater violence against Americans than Britons. Killing Americans has more symbolic propaganda value than killing Brits.

Why do you think that the terrorists killed the two American hostages first, then let the third British one live for two more weeks?
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Hello BPS,
"I do favor peace, unfortunately I don't think it's possible without some element of violence. I wish it weren't true but that seems to be the reality."
Not credible, the damage of the war and fighting will be long lasting, you have to want peace and plan for it.
"Who cares what Bush says, I am not him."
I thought Bush was your leader. Then what do you represent? Are you a flip-flop?

"They has some freedom now, but lack peace. You want a war to destroy Al Qaeda. Give up your war and let Iraqis sort it out."
Sorry, I don't buy that."
No deal? You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Iraq has got to get back to normal. Tell us how you would fix the mess in Iraq apart from killing Iraqis.

"Well first of all, Bush isn't as ignorant as you people think." Here we fundamentally disagree. A couple days ago he announced that the volunteer army would end..the crowd had to correct him. The man has no idea what he is saying.
"Secondly becase Kerry is a traitor and a man of no conviction."
A man who can standup to public opinion in the midst of a war is a man of conviction. Bush's only conviction was his DUI(driving under the influence of alcohol).
"Had it been Liberman or another candidate it might be different. (Of course that wouldn't have worked either because it would just prove that the Jews/Zionists run the US now right??)"
Not credible. Your mind is closed, or did you think Kerry won the debates, as the independents did? I read your blog comments at the time.


"Who said that? Not me. However, Kerry going groveling to the corrupt UN and the French isn't exactly my idea of a change for the better."
There is something wrong with people who think compromise is grovelling. Of course, we should compromise with the French, whenever possible.

"No but your "friends" do? How many Iraqi's have died at the hands of other Iraqi's these days?"
Bush has the same right that Zarqawi or Bin Ladin to kill an Iraqi. Zero.

"And yes, Barry == Barry PajamaSalami"
Do something about that incomprehensible gibberish, will you?
 
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"Not credible, the damage of the war and fighting will be long lasting, you have to want peace and plan for it."

And the damage caused by Saddam wasn't? Or the damage caused by Bin Laden and his types? We can debate the "justness" of the war but when people stop trying to blow us up, we'll stop shooting. Not to mention that we are trying to rebuild the stuff we broke unlike Saddam who was building palaces while his people starved. (And NO, we cannot rebuild lost, lives, I understand that).

"I thought Bush was your leader. Then what do you represent? Are you a flip-flop?"

Bush is the elected leader of our country yes but that does not mean that I have to agree with everything he does or says.


"No deal? You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Iraq has got to get back to normal. Tell us how you would fix the mess in Iraq apart from killing Iraqis."

Unfortunately I am neither. I am not part of the problem because I don't get off on killing innocent people in the name of Allah, nor am I part of the solution because I do not even attempt to claim to be an expert on Iraq, the Middle East, etc.


"Here we fundamentally disagree."

Fair enough, you are entitled to think he is a fool.


"A couple days ago he announced that the volunteer army would end..the crowd had to correct him. The man has no idea what he is saying."

Yes, his speaking skills are atrocious, I wouldn't disagree with that in the slightest.


"A man who can standup to public opinion in the midst of a war is a man of conviction. Bush's only conviction was his DUI(driving under the influence of alcohol)."

What has Kerry stood up for? "I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it"?? WTF is that?? He has only become "anti-war" to try to appeal to the Dean crowd. I don't think he could have a thought of his own if he tried. 20 years in the Senate and not ONE useful piece of legislation with his name on it??


"Had it been Liberman or another candidate it might be different. (Of course that wouldn't have worked either because it would just prove that the Jews/Zionists run the US now right??)"
Not credible. Your mind is closed, or did you think Kerry won the debates, as the independents did? I read your blog comments at the time.

You lost me here? Yes, I felt Kerry won the debates on style and presentation. However, I know when both of them are bending the truth so the debates didn't really mean that much to me. Also, as far as substance goes, I thought they both lost. I wasn't impressed with either with regards to their plans for the future.


"There is something wrong with people who think compromise is grovelling. Of course, we should compromise with the French, whenever possible."

F**k the French. They backstabbed us at the last minute while making money from Saddam and shipping him weapons. I have more respect for the Germans and Russians.


"Bush has the same right that Zarqawi or Bin Ladin to kill an Iraqi. Zero."

Look, no one has a "right" to kill anyone for the most part. But that is not living in reality. Are you a liberal? What do you suggest we do when people try to blow us up or kidnap some folks and cut off their heads, sue them?


"And yes, Barry == Barry PajamaSalami"
Do something about that incomprehensible gibberish, will you?

I was just telling you that yes, Barry and Barry PajamaSalami are both me.
 
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Hello Barry,
"And the damage caused by Saddam wasn't? Or the damage caused by Bin Laden and his types? We can debate the "justness" of the war but when people stop trying to blow us up, we'll stop shooting.
Can't you see the occupation is an evil in their eyes? Al Qaeda and the Baathists are different evils.

"Not to mention that we are trying to rebuild the stuff we broke unlike Saddam who was building palaces while his people starved. (And NO, we cannot rebuild lost, lives, I understand that)."
Rebuilding is way,way behind schedule. What about America's broken promises?
The security scam allows the US to keep killing Al Qaeda rather than fulfill promises to the Iraqi people.
"Bush is the elected leader of our country yes but that does not mean that I have to agree with everything he does or says."


"Unfortunately I am neither. I am not part of the problem because I don't get off on killing innocent people in the name of Allah, nor am I part of the solution because I do not even attempt to claim to be an expert on Iraq, the Middle East, etc."

"A man who can standup to public opinion in the midst of a war is a man of conviction. Bush's only conviction was his DUI(driving under the influence of alcohol)."

"What has Kerry stood up for? "I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it"?? WTF is that??"
Tricky Bush got Kerry's Iraq appropriation bill tabled and slipped his own with additional tax cuts making it toxic. It was cunningly done.
"He has only become "anti-war" to try to appeal to the Dean crowd. I don't think he could have a thought of his own if he tried."
I am not sure how anti-war he is now as he supports US troop presence there. This is a GOP canard.
"20 years in the Senate and not ONE useful piece of legislation with his name on it??" What about the deficit cutting legislation of the 90's..oh yeah, Bush has spent all those savings making the effort 'useless'.



"You lost me here? Yes, I felt Kerry won the debates on style and presentation. However, I know when both of them are bending the truth so the debates didn't really mean that much to me."
You make my point, you weren't listening. The concept of democracy is lost on you.
"Also, as far as substance goes, I thought they both lost. I wasn't impressed with either with regards to their plans for the future." The debates were designed to be weak, so as not to challenge the participants, particularily Bush.


"F**k the French. They backstabbed us at the last minute while making money from Saddam and shipping him weapons. I have more respect for the Germans and Russians."
They are frustrating by nature, however chose to ignore then at his peril. It could have been handled far more intelligently, they are our allies (ISAF) right now in Afghanistan you know.

"Look, no one has a "right" to kill anyone for the most part. But that is not living in reality."
Not quite, a legal Iraqi government does have that right. Saddam was not legit but by ME standards he was a government.You agree that an Iraqi government has the right to sentence Saddam to death?. Do you think that Bush has that right?
"Are you a liberal?"
Ah...the 'L' word.
"What do you suggest we do when people try to blow us up or kidnap some folks and cut off their heads, sue them?"
Treat them like criminals, not devils from hell. Bush's theological approach has totally backfired.

"I was just telling you that yes, Barry and Barry PajamaSalami are both me." I know..pajamasalami nonsense..like sodapants..etc. Like nails on a chalkboard...
 
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"Hello Barry,"

Hello ???,

"Can't you see the occupation is an evil in their eyes?"

Depends on whos eyes we are talking about. I read a lot of blogs, both pro and con the US. Some actually do see us as "liberators" you know.

"Al Qaeda and the Baathists are different evils."

I can't speak for the Baathists because I don't know enough about the party itself. But yes Saddam was a different evil than Al Qaeda but both are evil none the less.

"Rebuilding is way,way behind schedule. What about America's broken promises?"

Of course it is. The "resistence" is kidnapping and killing the workers. Who the he** wants to go build a hospital knowing that they may get kidnapped and beheaded? BTW, of which broken promises do you speak?

"The security scam allows the US to keep killing Al Qaeda rather than fulfill promises to the Iraqi people."

What security scam? And again, what promises? Electricity output is already back above pre-war levels though apparently many in Baghdad are pissed because it isn't all going to Baghdad anymore.


"Tricky Bush got Kerry's Iraq appropriation bill tabled and slipped his own with additional tax cuts making it toxic. It was cunningly done."

Wait, one minute he's a complete idiot and now he is crafty enough to sneak this in?

"I am not sure how anti-war he is now as he supports US troop presence there. This is a GOP canard."

Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time. How much more anti-war could he be. Of course he has to say that he supports US troops to suck the tit of those that do support our troops. He sure as he** didn't support his fellow soldiers in Vietnam.


"What about the deficit cutting legislation of the 90's..oh yeah, Bush has spent all those savings making the effort 'useless'."

That's bull. The only reason the deficit was lowered was from increased revenue from a booming economy. ( A falsely fluffed economy as it turned out but hey it's Bush's fault)


"You make my point, you weren't listening. The concept of democracy is lost on you."

How is that, because I don't believe either one of them?


"The debates were designed to be weak, so as not to challenge the participants, particularily Bush."

Gotta drag Bush down at any chance right? Come on, admit it, there was no substance on either side. If Kerry had anything useful/worthwhile to say he certainly could have annihilated Bush on the first debate becase GW looked stoned.


"They are frustrating by nature, however chose to ignore then at his peril. It could have been handled far more intelligently, they are our allies (ISAF) right now in Afghanistan you know."

Hindsight is always 20/20. That one of the things that really pisses me off about the current rhetoric. It's pretty easy after the fact to stand back and point out the mistakes that were made isn't it. A lot of things could have been handled more intelligently but it doesn't change my opinion that the French are not to be trusted and are not our Allies.


"Not quite, a legal Iraqi government does have that right."

So you support the death penalty here in the US? Somehow I find that hard to believe.


"Saddam was not legit but by ME standards he was a government.You agree that an Iraqi government has the right to sentence Saddam to death?. Do you think that Bush has that right?"

Bush no, Iraqi Govt yes but what does that have to do with the situation on the ground?

"Are you a liberal?"
Ah...the 'L' word.

That was part of the question, not meant as a slam.


"What do you suggest we do when people try to blow us up or kidnap some folks and cut off their heads, sue them?"
Treat them like criminals, not devils from hell. Bush's theological approach has totally backfired.

Why is this seen as a theological approach?? Everyone keeps saying that Bush said that God told him to attack Iraq, yet no one has been able to find a quote of him saying that. It is just people trying to make it a "Christians vs. Muslim" war when it is not.


"I know..pajamasalami nonsense..like sodapants..etc. Like nails on a chalkboard..."

Look, I am trying to be civil in this conversation why must you disparage me? You may think I am a right-wing nut job or whatever but do NOT compare me with sodapants.
 
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Hello Pajamasalami(yuck),
"Depends on whos eyes we are talking about. I read a lot of blogs, both pro and con the US. Some actually do see us as "liberators" you know."
I'm talking about the 80% of Iraqis who want us out. We never did get the trust of the Shias. Our blog-pals are usually small potato iraqi-exiles.


"I can't speak for the Baathists because I don't know enough about the party itself. But yes Saddam was a different evil than Al Qaeda but both are evil none the less."
The point is that the occupation is viewed as a failure or oppression. During the US civil war, a yankee asked a confederate what was he fighting for..the rebel said "Cuz yer down here!"
Just admit tht you understand it!!!!

"Of course it is. The "resistence" is kidnapping and killing the workers. Who the he** wants to go build a hospital knowing that they may get kidnapped and beheaded? BTW, of which broken promises do you speak?" A chicken-egg argument, unemployment and hopelessness feeds the insurgency. Bush built up expectations of a reconstruction and people are bitter.

What security scam?
That US troops are needed to patrol the streets. Iraqi's don't want to see them.
Electricity output is already back above pre-war levels though apparently many in Baghdad are pissed because it isn't all going to Baghdad anymore. Bagdad and suburbs is 50% of Iraq. They still don't get 24 hour power- how long could you last like that?

Wait, one minute he's a complete idiot and now he is crafty enough to sneak this in?
He has a remote brain, named Karl Rove. The GOP is smart but they have a dumb leader, which shows how smart they really are!

Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time. How much more anti-war could he be.
Wrong war-he thinks of Bin Ladin
wrong place, Afghanistan
wrong time, after the inspectors did their jobs
(not quite fair as they could never find the WMD Bush kept crowing about.
He's not anti-war, but he's also not Bush. So he's the lesser evil.
"Of course he has to say that he supports US troops to suck the tit of those that do support our troops. He sure as he** didn't support his fellow soldiers in Vietnam."
That support the troops mantra is really vile. "Support President Bush and our troops".
Are these GOP troops? 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.'

"That's bull. The only reason the deficit was lowered was from increased revenue from a booming economy. ( A falsely fluffed economy as it turned out but hey it's Bush's fault)"
Au contraire, mon ami. The deficit was a serious campaign issue in the 1990's without any visible solution and Newt caused the government shutdown allegedly to keep it solvent, but really to attack social spending.
"How is that, because I don't believe either one of them?" In democracy, you listen to debates and then vote for the lesser evil. By your logic you should not vote at all.

Gotta drag Bush down at any chance right? Come on, admit it, there was no substance on either side.
Bush never answered on direct question, just attacked..'my opponent is a leeebeeraaall, I'm a compassionate conservative'. What a maroon!
"If Kerry had anything useful/worthwhile to say he certainly could have annihilated Bush on the first debate becase GW looked stoned." Kerry was very lowkey because of Bush's low expectation strategy. He has to soft pedal it because of the GOP attack machine's spin cycle. Like that asshole Cheney demanding sympathy for the daughter reference after he a thanked Edwards for the same comment in their debate.

"It's pretty easy after the fact to stand back and point out the mistakes that were made isn't it. A lot of things could have been handled more intelligently but it doesn't change my opinion that the French are not to be trusted and are not our Allies."
Everything could have been handled better. Again they are in Afghanistan. Somehow Roosevelt handled DeGaulle who he hated worse than you hate DeVillepin. America needs a leader not a party boy with a infantile ego.

So you support the death penalty here in the US? Somehow I find that hard to believe.
Under certain circumstance I do. As it is applied in the courts, it is 'unusual punishment'. Actually I have visited death row on a job assignment--it is a truly awful place.

Bush no, Iraqi Govt yes but what does that have to do with the situation on the ground?
Americans don't have legitimacy to kill a single Iraqi, even Saddam.

"That was part of the question, not meant as a slam."
It is a label that doesn't explain my views. I can tell you what I think or you can label me and thereby put [false]words in my mouth.
"Why is this seen as a theological approach?? Everyone keeps saying that Bush said that God told him to attack Iraq, yet no one has been able to find a quote of him saying that. It is just people trying to make it a "Christians vs. Muslim" war when it is not." Bush told Woodward he didn't consult his father but consulted a 'higher Father'. I don't think he meant Cheney.

"Look, I am trying to be civil in this conversation why must you disparage me?"
Like most rightist blogers you choose weird( to me) nicknames. Sodapants likes to pretend he's a fake Iraqi or fake liberal,etc. I can't remember if caught you masquading? If you do, I'll put you two on the list together.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

"I'm talking about the 80% of Iraqis who want us out. We never did get the trust of the Shias. Our blog-pals are usually small potato iraqi-exiles."

Where does that 80% number come from? Did you see Ali's last post on Iraq The Model? And I don't think it's fair to label Ali, Omar, Sam, etc as small potatoes iraqi-exiles when they claim to be in country. I will admit that it is certainly possible that they are not who they say they are but I have to try to take them at their word. I also have a friend who volunteered to go to Baghdad to train Iraqi IP and he gives a different view than the media and anti-war folks too. I can only base an opinion on what I hear from both sides and so far most of the anti-war crowd is based on hate and conspiracy theory more than fact. (Again, must my interpretation of my little bit of research).


"The point is that the occupation is viewed as a failure or oppression. During the US civil war, a yankee asked a confederate what was he fighting for..the rebel said "Cuz yer down here!"
Just admit tht you understand it!!!!"

Understand what, that many see it as a failure or oppression? Yes, I will admit that but again, I don't know the true feelings on the ground because I get different stories. Put it this way: You are a scared 18 year old kid patrolling in a country you know little about and there is a large crowd of protestors. All it takes is one person in that crowd to shoot at you and you start firing randomly out of fear. The media and anti-US crowd run out screaming that we are indescriminantly killing Iraqi civilians.


"A chicken-egg argument, unemployment and hopelessness feeds the insurgency. Bush built up expectations of a reconstruction and people are bitter."

Agreed but that arguement goes both ways also.


"That US troops are needed to patrol the streets. Iraqi's don't want to see them."

How is this possible? Either we are there or we aren't.


"Bagdad and suburbs is 50% of Iraq. They still don't get 24 hour power- how long could you last like that?"

Again, what else can we do. We are trying to fix the grid. This arguement goes both ways too. I live in the Philadelphia suburbs, if Philly got 24hrs of power and I got 8, I would be even more pissed than both of use getting 14hrs a day.


"He has a remote brain, named Karl Rove. The GOP is smart but they have a dumb leader, which shows how smart they really are!"

I digress...


"Wrong war-he thinks of Bin Ladin
wrong place, Afghanistan
wrong time, after the inspectors did their jobs
(not quite fair as they could never find the WMD Bush kept crowing about.
He's not anti-war, but he's also not Bush. So he's the lesser evil."

There is much speculation that Bin Laden is dead or otherwise out of commision. Why then should we commit massive resources in some remote mountains for little gain. At this point Bin Laden is more of a movement than a man anyway.


"That support the troops mantra is really vile. "Support President Bush and our troops".
Are these GOP troops? 'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.'"

I didn't say that Support the Troops = Support Bush. But the left's statement that we "support the troops but not what they do" is a completely bulls**t statement.


Au contraire, mon ami. The deficit was a serious campaign issue in the 1990's without any visible solution and Newt caused the government shutdown allegedly to keep it solvent, but really to attack social spending.

So Newt fixed it? I thought you said Kerry fixed it?


"In democracy, you listen to debates and then vote for the lesser evil. By your logic you should not vote at all."

Pretty much. I haven't voted since I voted for Ross Perot (who unfortunately turned out to be a nutjob). This time I will be voting for Bush becuase while I disagree with him on a number of issues, I absolutely do not trust the current round of Democrats.


"Bush never answered on direct question, just attacked..'my opponent is a leeebeeraaall, I'm a compassionate conservative'. What a maroon!"

And Kerry did? "I'm gonna create jobs"... Oh yeah, how John? The only way the president can create jobs directly is to balloon the government. I also find it funny that Kerry keeps talking about outsourcing jobs when his "lovely" wife's company has factories in 72 other countries.


"Kerry was very lowkey because of Bush's low expectation strategy. He has to soft pedal it because of the GOP attack machine's spin cycle. Like that asshole Cheney demanding sympathy for the daughter reference after he a thanked Edwards for the same comment in their debate."

Got an anti-Bush answer for everything don't you. It was absolutely inappropriate for Edwards and Kerry to bring Mary Cheney into it. I'm sure the Dems would be furious if Bush and/or Cheney brought Mrs. Edwards weight into the campaign because obesity is a problem in America.


"Everything could have been handled better. Again they are in Afghanistan. Somehow Roosevelt handled DeGaulle who he hated worse than you hate DeVillepin. America needs a leader not a party boy with a infantile ego."

The French bring nothing to the table, period. Don't want them, don't need them. Now Spain, Germany, Russia, I would agree.


"Under certain circumstance I do. As it is applied in the courts, it is 'unusual punishment'. Actually I have visited death row on a job assignment--it is a truly awful place."

You expected it to be Disneyland?


"Americans don't have legitimacy to kill a single Iraqi, even Saddam."

I still don't understand this arguement. Who does have legitimacy? So the Iraqi government decides to start killing all Sunni's just for being Sunni, that is legitimate because it is the Iraqi government??


It is a label that doesn't explain my views. I can tell you what I think or you can label me and thereby put [false]words in my mouth.

I was not attempting to put words in your mouth, I was asking a question. You call me a "righty" so touche'.. :-)


"Bush told Woodward he didn't consult his father but consulted a 'higher Father'. I don't think he meant Cheney."

Why is it that people can kill in the name of Allah and that appears to be OK but GWB shows some of his faith and he is the great "Christian Crusader" bent on destroying all other faiths???? Do you even know that Bush was the first President to hold a Ramadan dinner with Muslims in the White House?


"Like most rightist blogers you choose weird( to me) nicknames. Sodapants likes to pretend he's a fake Iraqi or fake liberal,etc. I can't remember if caught you masquading? If you do, I'll put you two on the list together."

The Pajama thing was in response to some comments made about bloggers being homophobes sitting in their pajamas, blah blah blah. I have not been using the handle here except so that people know that it is the same person because there is also a Barry USA which is not me. As for masquerading posts, no, I do not do that. I have occasionaly posted as Anonymous to be sarcastic but I always cop to it. But even if I did, you cannot put my comments in league with sodapants. While I do agree with him at times, he is a little too right-wing even for me.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Circular,

I don't normally post on this blog but I just had to respond to your question about the higher number of casualties among American troops as opposed to British:
"Does this suggest that one lot of occupiers are a LOT more hated than the other? Wonder why?"

#1. There are about 140,000 American troops in Iraq and less than 10,000 British. Do the math.

#2. The American troops are posted in the most dangerous areas of Iraq, namely the Sunni triangle. And, no, this area is not more dangerous simply because the American troops aren't as "nice" as the British. These areas employed Saddam's secret police, cronies, Fedayeen, etc. They also benefited the most from Saddam's regime and hence were more hostile to those deposing him. It is also an area with a greater percentage of those with an extreme Islamic Wahhabi philosophy, as well as being home to notorious hotspots like Fallujah and other towns in the western desert which were nearly lawless smuggling havens which even Saddam could barely control, so he simply bought them off.

#3. The small number of British troops are concentrated in a relatively tiny section of Iraq, namely Basra, a mainly Shiite city in the extreme south of Iraq near the Kuwaiti border and the port which has long been more cosmopolitan and open than many of the tribal areas up north.

These are just some of the reasons for the disparity in casualties.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Hello Barry,
"Where does that 80% number come from? Did you see Ali's last post on Iraq The Model? And I don't think it's fair to label Ali, Omar, Sam, etc as small potatoes iraqi-exiles when they claim to be in country."
From USANews poll4/28/2004: But while they acknowledge benefits from dumping Saddam a year ago, Iraqis no longer see the presence of the American-led military as a plus. Asked whether they view the U.S.-led coalition as "liberators" or "occupiers," 71% of all respondents say "occupiers."
That figure reaches 81% if the separatist, pro-U.S. Kurdish minority in northern Iraq is not included.
Things have certainly gotten worse since April.
I believe sam is an iraqi exile. I do think the Fahdils are real(though others are skeptical), but are a minority viewpoint. The Jarrars, who are highly educated also, are more typical of the professional classes. The real Iraqi people are not blogging with us and are locked into their culture and religion.
" I can only base an opinion on what I hear from both sides and so far most of the anti-war crowd is based on hate and conspiracy theory more than fact."
"Understand what, that many see it as a failure or oppression? Yes, I will admit that but again, I don't know the true feelings on the ground because I get different stories."
"Put it this way: You are a scared 18 year old kid patrolling in a country you know little about and there is a large crowd of protestors. All it takes is one person in that crowd to shoot at you and you start firing randomly out of fear." This is the real crime of Bush, not thinking the whole thing through-he was warned many times!
"How is this possible? Either we are there or we aren't." This is what Iraqis are saying- they are sincerely afraid of US 'friendly fire'.

"Again, what else can we do. We are trying to fix the grid. This arguement goes both ways too. I live in the Philadelphia suburbs, if Philly got 24hrs of power and I got 8, I would be even more pissed than both of use getting 14hrs a day." More excuses(an Iraqi might say)?

"There is much speculation that Bin Laden is dead or otherwise out of commision. Why then should we commit massive resources in some remote mountains for little gain. At this point Bin Laden is more of a movement than a man anyway." Yes, it is ironic that a whole new AlQaeda is growing up in Iraq. I agree with Kerry, terrorism must become a nussiance. Bush is rubbing the sore causing the disease to grow.
I didn't say that Support the Troops = Support Bush. But the left's statement that we "support the troops but not what they do" is a completely bulls**t statement.
The left opposes policy, policy is determined by civilians, troops are not responsibile. But politicians want to drape themselves in the flag. If you wish to politicize the military, you'll love the juntas of Latin America and Africa.


"So Newt fixed it? I thought you said Kerry fixed it?" Newt claimed he was fighting big deficits andbig government it was a lie.
"This time I will be voting for Bush becuase while I disagree with him on a number of issues, I absolutely do not trust the current round of Democrats." I know you--you're a yellow dog Republican, don't try to hide it.

"The only way the president can create jobs directly is to balloon the government." He wants energy independence and infrastruture improvements--things that will help America at home. At least he will try. Bush will not help, it's against his religion. So America is losing in his globalized world.
" I'm sure the Dems would be furious if Bush and/or Cheney brought Mrs. Edwards weight into the campaign because obesity is a problem in America." And you would love it!

"The French bring nothing to the table, period. Don't want them, don't need them. Now Spain, Germany, Russia, I would agree.
Nonsense, driving France away gives other 'malcontents' a place to go. If France had joined us, the others would have been reluctant to go it alone. Your kind of weak thinking is typical of Bush.

"I still don't understand this arguement. Who does have legitimacy? So the Iraqi government decides to start killing all Sunni's just for being Sunni, that is legitimate because it is the Iraqi government??"
Don't get distracted, we are talking about the right of an occupier to kill the occupied and visa versa.
"I was not attempting to put words in your mouth, I was asking a question. You call me a "righty" so touche'.. :-)"
Liberal is a prejorative, conservative a positive label. Your side has the better ad men. Our side has the better idea men.


"Why is it that people can kill in the name of Allah and that appears to be OK but GWB shows some of his faith and he is the great "Christian Crusader" bent on destroying all other faiths???? Do you even know that Bush was the first President to hold a Ramadan dinner with Muslims in the White House?"
I am a secular, freethinker. I oppose political religion everywhere. It is worse in America which was founded by seculars who despised religion and tried to banish it from government forever. Why would I approve of any religion in the White House?

The Pajama thing was in response to some comments made about bloggers being homophobes sitting in their pajamas, blah blah blah.... While I do agree with him at times, he is a little too right-wing even for me.
The right loves the 'name names' intimidation game since McCarthy. I am too lazy to change from anonymous and why should I. Everyone recognises me anyways.
Ali calls me Anon1. The fact Andrea is easily confused doesn't really bother me in the least.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Anonymous,


"From USANews poll4/28/2004: But while they acknowledge benefits from dumping Saddam a year ago, Iraqis no longer see the presence of the American-led military as a plus. Asked whether they view the U.S.-led coalition as "liberators" or "occupiers," 71% of all respondents say "occupiers."
That figure reaches 81% if the separatist, pro-U.S. Kurdish minority in northern Iraq is not included.
Things have certainly gotten worse since April."

Fair enough. I will take your word for it, though I rarely trust polls especially from main stream media sources.


I believe sam is an iraqi exile. I do think the Fahdils are real(though others are skeptical), but are a minority viewpoint. The Jarrars, who are highly educated also, are more typical of the professional classes. The real Iraqi people are not blogging with us and are locked into their culture and religion."

No, sam from Hammorabi is an Iraqi (or a CIA agent/US puppet). Sami, the poster on ITM is an exile.


"This is the real crime of Bush, not thinking the whole thing through-he was warned many times!"

This is true in any hostile situation. Do you think it was different in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, or anywhere else?

"This is what Iraqis are saying- they are sincerely afraid of US 'friendly fire'."

But not of kidnappings and being blown up by some car bomb?


"Again, what else can we do. We are trying to fix the grid. This arguement goes both ways too. I live in the Philadelphia suburbs, if Philly got 24hrs of power and I got 8, I would be even more pissed than both of use getting 14hrs a day." More excuses(an Iraqi might say)?

Chicken and egg again. Is it an excuse or reality?


"Yes, it is ironic that a whole new AlQaeda is growing up in Iraq. I agree with Kerry, terrorism must become a nussiance. Bush is rubbing the sore causing the disease to grow."

Right, 3/11 in Spain, 9/11 in the US, Bali, the USS Cole, Riyadh, ad nauseum. Just a nussiance.

There are two ways of looking at this (and btw, I HATE it when Republicans use the phrase "better to fight them there than here"). We do nothing and just let the problem fester and hope it goes away. Or, we take action, bringing them out into the open. I honestly cannot say which is right and obviously both are dangerous.


"The left opposes policy, policy is determined by civilians, troops are not responsibile. But politicians want to drape themselves in the flag. If you wish to politicize the military, you'll love the juntas of Latin America and Africa."

I don't politicize the military, I was in the Marine Corps and served my country. Did you? Why do you suppose over 70% of the military appears to support Bush? They believe we are doing the right thing so again, you can't have it both ways.


"Newt claimed he was fighting big deficits andbig government it was a lie."

Whatever.

"I know you--you're a yellow dog Republican, don't try to hide it."

No, obviously you do not know me. However, in the current race, yes, I would take a yellow dog over Kerry and his Nazi wife and lawyer/playboy running mate. I am pro-choice but against partial birth abortions. I think we should call all "marriages" civil unions under the law whether its man/woman, man/man, man/dog, whatever. Let the Churches figure out the religous meaning of marraige. I prefer smaller government but in some cases increased government makes sense. I wouldn't mind seeing a national health care system but I don't know that I trust the government to run it.


"He wants energy independence and infrastruture improvements--things that will help America at home. At least he will try. Bush will not help, it's against his religion. So America is losing in his globalized world."

WTF are you talking about, against his religion?? It is becoming a global economy whether we like it or not. I notice you dodged my question about Heinz being in 72 countries.


" I'm sure the Dems would be furious if Bush and/or Cheney brought Mrs. Edwards weight into the campaign because obesity is a problem in America." And you would love it!

Why would I love it? I would see it as a personal attack as well. Stop trying to paint me into a right-wing corner. Like I said, you obviously do not know me.


"Nonsense, driving France away gives other 'malcontents' a place to go. If France had joined us, the others would have been reluctant to go it alone. Your kind of weak thinking is typical of Bush."

They are already in France and they seem to be welcoming them. It could be dangerous for France in the long run.


"Don't get distracted, we are talking about the right of an occupier to kill the occupied and visa versa."

I'm not distracted. I am saying that no one has a "right" to kill anyone but it does happen.

"Liberal is a prejorative,"

Says who?

" conservative a positive label."

Again, says who? It seems to be becoming more and more of a bad word these days.


"Your side has the better ad men. Our side has the better idea men."

Possibly true. I heard a funny comment on talk radio today that Democrats come up with the plans and the Republicans are better at executing them. I thought that was an interesting perspective.


"I am a secular, freethinker. I oppose political religion everywhere. It is worse in America which was founded by seculars who despised religion and tried to banish it from government forever. Why would I approve of any religion in the White House?"

How are you going to avoid religion in the White House when the majority of Americans posses some type of faith? At least I know where his character is coming from. Kerry tries to say he is Catholic but supports abortion. I have no love of Catholics but you can NOT be a Catholic and be pro-choice.


"The right loves the 'name names' intimidation game since McCarthy. I am too lazy to change from anonymous and why should I. Everyone recognises me anyways.
Ali calls me Anon1. The fact Andrea is easily confused doesn't really bother me in the least."

What 'name names' intimidation? I like to know who I am talking to. There are about 10,000 Anonymous posters on these blogs so how would I possibly "know who you are"? I was gonna guess that you are "Scott from Oregon" just messing with my head but I am seeing that, that is probably not the case.
 
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To Lisa from Circular

Don't know if you will read this, I haven't looked at this chapter of the blog for a while.

An expansion of my original figures, from another blog:

Look at the figures (from icasualties.org)
Fatal casualties during invasion:
Yanks 139 Brits 33
Can't say the Brit's had it easy there!
Fatal casualties, May 83 to June 94
Yanks 715 Brits 27
There was a rise in unrest in Basra during the Najaf battle. That's when N.Z. decided not to continue its Army Engineer deployment, because they weren't getting any work done (building schools, installing irrigation etc.) This may have been a bit hasty, because:
Fatal casualties since June 94
Yanks 248 Brits 8
Sure the South may have been an easier job, but 12,000 Brits and Ities to say 5 million Iraqis is about 415 locals to each soldier. 130,000 Yanks to say 15 million Iraqis (forget the Kurds) is about 115 locals to each soldier.
But both occupation armies started out from the same initial state - remember it took quite a while to settle that southern oil port down?
I'm afraid the over-riding impression is that the aggressive U.S. tactics have been fueling the insurgency as much as they have been curbing it, and are still doing so. And leaving a legacy of lasting hatred. After all, you're looking at say 20 Iraqi casualties for every Coalition casualty. Figure 7 wounded for each one killed, and work out the maths.

And then today I find these two items in the news.

General McPeak Speaks Out. "‘Certainly, we're creating more terrorists every day than we're killing,’ said McPeak, a former chief of staff during Desert Storm. The general said disenchantment with George W. Bush's leadership led to his becoming an independent. ‘If we had the same ratio of peacekeepers (in Iraq) ... that NATO has in Bosnia, we'd have 500,000 soldiers,’ he said. ‘We have 140,000. It's too small to get the job done and too big to be sustained.’"

Insufficient troops for Operation Enduring SNAFU. "The U.S. military lacks sufficient troops for post-combat ‘stability and reconstruction’ operations, and should consider adding 'significant' numbers, a review by the Pentagon's Defense Science Board found. The report lists four main options for addressing what it calls an ‘enduring shortfall’ of troops: enlarging the military, shifting combat troops to post-combat duties, turning to the United Nations or allies for assistance, or scaling back ‘the number and/or objectives of stabilization missions."

I can only repeat, I'm not anti-American. But I do think your military tactics post-invasion have been wrong, and unfortunately, unlike in most wars, you have an ally to show this (and I'm not particularly pro-British either.)
And I do think your Commander-in-Chief and his deputies and advisors are ultimately responsible for the tactics your military have used.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Hello Barry,
"This is true in any hostile situation. Do you think it was different in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, or anywhere else?"
LOL 'Men must work though women weep'. A good reason to avoid hostile situations!
"But not of kidnappings and being blown up by some car bomb?"
I condemn all such criminal acts. But the US is independently responsible for its mistakes.
"Chicken and egg again. Is it an excuse or reality?" When you start asking circular questions you know your not making progress.

"Right, 3/11 in Spain, 9/11 in the US, Bali, the USS Cole, Riyadh, ad nauseum. Just a nussiance."
Precisely. The Brits handled the IRA menace with courage not hysteria. Americans can handle the long term problem of Islamic fundamentalism. This is really the only way to go. Over time as Muslims get more experience living in the modern world they will be come more tolerant and see that the West doesn't threaten their culture. Bush is bombing them back to the 7th century where Bin Ladin wants them to live. The real threat is hysterics who want to change America.

"I don't politicize the military, I was in the Marine Corps and served my country. Did you? Why do you suppose over 70% of the military appears to support Bush? They believe we are doing the right thing so again, you can't have it both ways."
I am really not impressed with your service, which you feel makes you better than me. For me militarism is not noble. The military has a dangerous job to do, but they need to be professional. For the military to get into politics is like the cashier pocketing change from the cash register. They have their right to vote, that's it. I despise these Praetorians Guard types.
"No, obviously you do not know me. However, in the current race, yes, I would take a yellow dog over Kerry and his Nazi wife and lawyer/playboy running mate."
LOL
I am pro-choice but against partial birth abortions. I think we should call all "marriages" civil unions under the law whether its man/woman, man/man, man/dog, whatever. Let the Churches figure out the religous meaning of marraige. I prefer smaller government but in some cases increased government makes sense. I wouldn't mind seeing a national health care system but I don't know that I trust the government to run it.
And you support Bush? You are a I-vote-my gut-voter., a 'trust-voter', a 'character' voter. I vote for issues and for politicians who have to break their promises.
I want to hear about a better tomorrow and how we are going to get there.

"WTF are you talking about, against his religion?? It is becoming a global economy whether we like it or not. I notice you dodged my question about Heinz being in 72 countries." Bush's laize-faire religion, don't touch the bloody market religion, Herbert Hoover's religion.
We need to keep America economically strong, not fund overseas colonization by big US corporations. Heinz question? oh yeah..HAHA very amusing?..?..?...?

"Why would I love it? I would see it as a personal attack as well. Stop trying to paint me into a right-wing corner. Like I said, you obviously do not know me." Fine, except you brought Edward's wife's obseity up. Most middle aged wives with children are fat, Laura Bush is plump on the bottom..big friggin' deal. You want it both ways.
"They are already in France and they seem to be welcoming them. It could be dangerous for France in the long run." We blew a good opportunity to really impress the world as 'the hyperpower' had we gotten France on board, now America looks isolated. Somebody should get fired.

"I'm not distracted. I am saying that no one has a "right" to kill anyone but it does happen."
Not even in the military is unauthorized killing allowed. That should increase the responsibility on the civilian policy makers for correcting or moderating such mistakes.

"I heard a funny comment on talk radio today that Democrats come up with the plans and the Republicans are better at executing them. I thought that was an interesting perspective."
America needs new ideas right now, not more commercials.
"How are you going to avoid religion in the White House when the majority of Americans posses some type of faith?""At least I know where his character is coming from."
This is the most cynical pandering imaginable and damages America's traditions.
"Kerry tries to say he is Catholic but supports abortion.I have no love of Catholics but you can NOT be a Catholic and be pro-choice."
So do most Catholics. The reactionary senile Papa is trying to discipline his wayward flock. I hear Bush wants to bring the Pope over to America on a battleship.
"What 'name names' intimidation? I like to know who I am talking to."
At one time, I considered a regular nick, but then the taunts came. Obviously, like Bushie, I can't give in to intimidation!
"I was gonna guess that you are "Scott from Oregon" just messing with my head but I am seeing that, that is probably not the case." You'd be smarter effectively addressing my arguments and not worrying about addressing me.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Anoymous,

"LOL 'Men must work though women weep'. A good reason to avoid hostile situations!"

Nice ideal but again, not reality.


"I condemn all such criminal acts. But the US is independently responsible for its mistakes."

And we take that responsibility.


"When you start asking circular questions you know your not making progress."

That works both ways.


"Precisely. The Brits handled the IRA menace with courage not hysteria. Americans can handle the long term problem of Islamic fundamentalism. This is really the only way to go. Over time as Muslims get more experience living in the modern world they will be come more tolerant and see that the West doesn't threaten their culture. Bush is bombing them back to the 7th century where Bin Ladin wants them to live. The real threat is hysterics who want to change America."

I agree with you that hysterics serve no purpose. However, I disagree about the handling of the terrorists. Islamic Fundamentalism is not like the IRA, they want all non-Muslims dead.


"I am really not impressed with your service, which you feel makes you better than me."

Did I say that?


"For me militarism is not noble. The military has a dangerous job to do, but they need to be professional. For the military to get into politics is like the cashier pocketing change from the cash register. They have their right to vote, that's it. I despise these Praetorians Guard types."

Who said the military should be in politics?


"And you support Bush? You are a I-vote-my gut-voter., a 'trust-voter', a 'character' voter. I vote for issues and for politicians who have to break their promises.
I want to hear about a better tomorrow and how we are going to get there."

How can you vote for issues unless you support everything the candidate stands for? Maybe you do, but I have yet to find a candidate that I agree with completely.


"Bush's laize-faire religion, don't touch the bloody market religion, Herbert Hoover's religion.
We need to keep America economically strong, not fund overseas colonization by big US corporations. Heinz question? oh yeah..HAHA very amusing?..?..?...?"

What corporation is colonizing overseas? And don't scream the lefty "Halliburton" answer for everything. There is not wrong with corporations, they put food on my table. (Except for the scum like Enron, etc.). And yes I believe there is corruption in most companies and that drives me nuts but that is a seperate issue.


"Fine, except you brought Edward's wife's obseity up. Most middle aged wives with children are fat, Laura Bush is plump on the bottom..big friggin' deal. You want it both ways."

No I don't, neither candidates families should be fodder for our crazy election process.


"We blew a good opportunity to really impress the world as 'the hyperpower' had we gotten France on board, now America looks isolated. Somebody should get fired."

We will never be seen as 'the hyperpower'. We are seen as the "Great Satan". Period. Everyone wants to take us down, at least until they want/need something from us.


"Not even in the military is unauthorized killing allowed. That should increase the responsibility on the civilian policy makers for correcting or moderating such mistakes."

Ack.. Where are we going with this???


"America needs new ideas right now, not more commercials."

I would agree, which is another reason not to vote for Kerry. He has no new ideas. Let's leave the bankrupt Social Security system in place. Let's raise taxes on the "wealthy". Wow, what a forward thinker.


"This is the most cynical pandering imaginable and damages America's traditions."

How is it pandering? Our character is based on our experiences and most people have some type of religious background. Some more fundamental than others but it's there. Should we only elect Athiests and Agnostics?


"So do most Catholics."

Wrong. If they are pro-choice, they are not true Catholics. And like I stated before I am moderately pro Choice and NOT a Catholic.

"The reactionary senile Papa is trying to discipline his wayward flock. I hear Bush wants to bring the Pope over to America on a battleship."

WTF does that mean? And I have no admiration for the Pope since I am not Catholic.


At one time, I considered a regular nick, but then the taunts came. Obviously, like Bushie, I can't give in to intimidation!

Here we go again. Why bring Bush into the conversation, he has nothing to do with this aspect of it.


"You'd be smarter effectively addressing my arguments and not worrying about addressing me."

I never claimed to be smart. :-)
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Hello Barry,
"Islamic Fundamentalism is not like the IRA, they want all non-Muslims dead."
No,I am not an expert but I think they are fighting for the souls of the Muslims. A mistake on framing this problem will make any solution impossible.

"Who said the military should be in politics?" I am not happy that Kerry is playing this game also--'putting on the bloody shirt'. After the Revolutionary War, Washington suppressed a revolt of the military over pay and set the example.
"How can you vote for issues unless you support everything the candidate stands for? Maybe you do, but I have yet to find a candidate that I agree with completely." I vote for the party and candidate with whom I agree most often and against the enemy of my issues. In this election it is easy, I disagree with Bush on everything.

"What corporation is colonizing overseas? And don't scream the lefty "Halliburton" answer for everything." Colonizing..It's called globalization, sending US capital and money (and jobs) overseas.
"There is not wrong with corporations, they put food on my table. (Except for the scum like Enron, etc.). And yes I believe there is corruption in most companies and that drives me nuts but that is a seperate issue." Corporations are not regulated and the management is completely out of control with truely fat-cat CEOs stealing from stockholders. I especially remember the Arthur Andersen auditing fraud. The republicans like to cut manpower at the SEC and the IRS to make enforcement more difficult. They are getting away with murder.
"We will never be seen as 'the hyperpower'. We are seen as the "Great Satan". Period. Everyone wants to take us down, at least until they want/need something from us." With Bush,everybody will succeed. Hyperpower is what the French were calling us after 1992.
"Ack.. Where are we going with this???" Just admit that the US doesn't have any right to attack Muslims who haven't attacked us- that would also go for Syria and Iran, right now.

"I would agree, which is another reason not to vote for Kerry. He has no new ideas. Let's leave the bankrupt Social Security system in place. Let's raise taxes on the "wealthy". Wow, what a forward thinker."
Have you even gone to his website? These are all tough issues ignored by Bush.
"How is it pandering? Our character is based on our experiences and most people have some type of religious background. Some more fundamental than others but it's there. Should we only elect Athiests and Agnostics?" America will never elect an atheist or agnostic to anything. I think they did in the 1920's but that was it. A black, a woman will be elected president long before an atheist. This is the prejudice of the american voter. Your fears of public atheism are ridiculous, but the fear of christian fanatics is very real.

"Wrong. If they are pro-choice, they are not true Catholics. And like I stated before I am moderately pro Choice and NOT a Catholic." 'Twenty years ago, New York Gov. Mario Cuomo delivered a lecture at Notre Dame, sketching out his pro-life and pro-choice position as a Catholic politician. He was partially successful -- more than half of American Catholics identify themselves as pro-choice...'Are you the Pope? Only Catholics can determine what a Catholic is.

"WTF does that mean? And I have no admiration for the Pope since I am not Catholic."
In 1960, protestants said that if Kennedy was elected he would 'bring the Pope over on a battleship'. I'm sure cleric butt-kisser George would do it in a heartbeat. His GOP troopers are using congregation phone lists to contact 'likely voters', a recent innovation.

"Why bring Bush into the conversation, he has nothing to do with this aspect of it." Pushing hot button religious issues are his favorite technique.
He's using every dirty trick in the book--especially his old standby homophobia routine from his governor's race with Anne Richards. In that race, he stated that Richard's campaign was staffed by homosexuals and put up pictures of men kissing in an ad. Not to mention his staff's contention that John McCain was mentally unbalanced by his imprisonment.. Yeah,that Dubya-YOUR MAN is a classy guy! Geez, if you had any moral fiber you'd vote for Kerry just to hurt such a dirty swine.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Anonymous,

I wonder when Abu is going to ban us for hijacking his blog? :-)

"No,I am not an expert but I think they are fighting for the souls of the Muslims. A mistake on framing this problem will make any solution impossible."

Agreed but many of the more "radical" clerics have so much as said so. Have you read Bin Laden's "jihad on America" or whatever the title is called?


"I am not happy that Kerry is playing this game also--'putting on the bloody shirt'. After the Revolutionary War, Washington suppressed a revolt of the military over pay and set the example."

Fair enough.


"I vote for the party and candidate with whom I agree most often and against the enemy of my issues. In this election it is easy, I disagree with Bush on everything."

That is your right.


"Colonizing..It's called globalization, sending US capital and money (and jobs) overseas."

It's economics. If you can produce something cheaper overseas, you are going to do it. Do you honestly believe that Kerry is going to be able to tax companies to keep employment in this country?


"Corporations are not regulated and the management is completely out of control with truely fat-cat CEOs stealing from stockholders. I especially remember the Arthur Andersen auditing fraud. The republicans like to cut manpower at the SEC and the IRS to make enforcement more difficult. They are getting away with murder."

Corporations are regulated but not enforced. The IRS should be reduced as our tax codes are a joke. I really wanted to vote for Forbes just for his flat tax proposal. Of course he turned out to be a nut to..


"With Bush,everybody will succeed. Hyperpower is what the French were calling us after 1992."

Well if Bush is as bad as you say, the UN should love him since they seem to adore dictators.. ;-P (Sorry couldn't resist)



"Just admit that the US doesn't have any right to attack Muslims who haven't attacked us- that would also go for Syria and Iran, right now."

Muslims have attacked us. Were you asleep? "Muslims" as a whole have not but the more radical sides of Islam have. Iran needs a regime change to. The people want it.. Check out http://www.activistchat.com. I'm withholding judgement on Syria until I get more info about things being moved there from Iraq.


"Have you even gone to his website? These are all tough issues ignored by Bush."

Yes I have and 90% of it is tripe.


"America will never elect an atheist or agnostic to anything. I think they did in the 1920's but that was it. A black, a woman will be elected president long before an atheist. This is the prejudice of the american voter. Your fears of public atheism are ridiculous, but the fear of christian fanatics is very real."

Who said anything about MY fears? I said the American public. And I don't disagree with you. Christian fanatics are as dangerous as Muslim fanatics.


"'Twenty years ago, New York Gov. Mario Cuomo delivered a lecture at Notre Dame, sketching out his pro-life and pro-choice position as a Catholic politician. He was partially successful -- more than half of American Catholics identify themselves as pro-choice...'Are you the Pope? Only Catholics can determine what a Catholic is."

My wife was Catholic and her family is Catholic. I have also studied their doctrine some. If you are pro-choice, you are not a practicing Catholic, period.


"In 1960, protestants said that if Kennedy was elected he would 'bring the Pope over on a battleship'. I'm sure cleric butt-kisser George would do it in a heartbeat. His GOP troopers are using congregation phone lists to contact 'likely voters', a recent innovation."

Meanwhile Kerry and Clinton are giving political speeches in churches. What's your point? BTW, afaik, Bush is not Catholic so why would he bring the Pope over?


"Pushing hot button religious issues are his favorite technique.
He's using every dirty trick in the book--especially his old standby homophobia routine from his governor's race with Anne Richards. In that race, he stated that Richard's campaign was staffed by homosexuals and put up pictures of men kissing in an ad. Not to mention his staff's contention that John McCain was mentally unbalanced by his imprisonment.. Yeah,that Dubya-YOUR MAN is a classy guy! Geez, if you had any moral fiber you'd vote for Kerry just to hurt such a dirty swine."

As I stated before, Bush is not 'MY MAN'. However I WILL NOT in good conscious vote for John Kerry. I'd be better off voting for Cobbs or the Constitutionalist candidate but that would be a throw-away.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Hello Barry,

"I wonder when Abu is going to ban us for hijacking his blog? :-)"
I am waiting for his new series of blogs anyways(Please hurry, Abu).

It's economics. If you can produce something cheaper overseas, you are going to do it. Do you honestly believe that Kerry is going to be able to tax companies to keep employment in this country?
Of course, I believe we can control of our economic destiny. All GOP tough guys are economic wimps(talk about a flip-flop, look at Bush's record on trade). Everyday you support Bush's economics makes regaining control more difficult. Didn't you learn anything from Ross 'that-giant-sucking- sound' Perot?

"Corporations are regulated but not enforced. The IRS should be reduced as our tax codes are a joke. I really wanted to vote for Forbes just for his flat tax proposal. Of course he turned out to be a nut to.."
You vote for a lot of kooks. The idea of the progressive income tax is that people should pay taxes based on the ability to pay. The government must be paid for, and the rich benefit from society, so they should pay more. Only the government can pay for the large scale projects essential for the modern world.
The idea that the poor man and the rich man should pay proportionally the same amount of their income in taxes would quickly concentrate all money in the hands of the richest and impoverish the rest. If you love the flat tax you'll love living in the third world, where the rich are kings and the poor are serfs. If you don't mind the progressive income tax you wouldn't mind living in Sweden, Germany, France, Japan, etc. Right now we're on our way to the Third World.

"Well if Bush is as bad as you say, the UN should love him since they seem to adore dictators.. ;-P (Sorry couldn't resist)"
Yes, he's definitely dictator material. But he hates the UN and they hate him. Nice, eh?
"Muslims have attacked us. Were you asleep? "Muslims" as a whole have not but the more radical sides of Islam have."To be honest most of the hijackers were Saudis so why not attack KSA?? Forget the figgin' attacks. This is why everyone thinks the USA is a bunch of cowboys.
Man, Barry, you are just too reckless, give it a rest.
Iran needs a regime change to. The people want it.. Check out http://www.activistchat.com. I chat with Iranians on occasion. They may not like their government, but they don't want mass destruction in their country either, which is what a US invasion would bring.
"I'm withholding judgement on Syria until I get more info about things being moved there from Iraq." What a 'moderate' thing to say;)

"Who said anything about MY fears? I said the American public. And I don't disagree with you. Christian fanatics are as dangerous as Muslim fanatics." No, far more dangerous. I think it is important to note that there have been NO acts of terrorism by American Muslims, whereas there have been hundreds by Bible bleeping Christians and a few by the JDL.

"My wife was Catholic and her family is Catholic. I have also studied their doctrine some. If you are pro-choice, you are not a practicing Catholic, period."
You're very dogmatic aren't you. The majority of American Catholics are pro-choice and ignore idiotic religious prohibitions against birth control and many disagree on abortion. Frankly you sound like a mullah on 'true Islam'- probably a wahabbi type. Feel like issuing some fatwas?

"Meanwhile Kerry and Clinton are giving political speeches in churches. What's your point?"
Bush is pro-religion on the issues, Kerry is just looking for votes. Any thing that favors the establishment of religion he's for- Born-again Bush is not normal.
"Bush is not Catholic so why would he bring the Pope over?" To show his love for a great 'man of God'and impress the ignorant masses.
"I'd be better off voting for Cobbs or the Constitutionalist candidate but that would be a throw-away." Ah, you've lost all your ideals since Perot. You don't know how to vote properly. You may not think it but Bush is your enemy too--unless you're a rich, religious fanatic that irrationally hates Muslims.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

"Of course, I believe we can control of our economic destiny. All GOP tough guys are economic wimps(talk about a flip-flop, look at Bush's record on trade). Everyday you support Bush's economics makes regaining control more difficult. Didn't you learn anything from Ross 'that-giant-sucking- sound' Perot?"

Well now I certainly understand why you are voting for Kerry. Let's hurry up and get Socialist so the Government can take care of us and we can all be lazy.


"You vote for a lot of kooks."

Seems that way doesn't it.. :-(


"The idea of the progressive income tax is that people should pay taxes based on the ability to pay."

Why? In a flat tax, the "rich" are still paying more. 20% of someone making $200,000 a year is significantly more than 20% of $20,000 a year. Also, the "rich" can no longer take advantage of any tax shelters and so forth. There is also speculation that it would reduce interest rates which we know accelerates puchases of homes and other big-ticket items. You do know that the top 10% of wage earners in this country alread pay over 70% of the total tax burden right? How much more should the "rich" pay? 100%?


"The government must be paid for, and the rich benefit from society, so they should pay more."

And the "poor" don't? I would argue that the "poor" actually get more services from the Government than the "rich". Welfare, etc.


"Only the government can pay for the large scale projects essential for the modern world.
The idea that the poor man and the rich man should pay proportionally the same amount of their income in taxes would quickly concentrate all money in the hands of the richest and impoverish the rest. If you love the flat tax you'll love living in the third world, where the rich are kings and the poor are serfs. If you don't mind the progressive income tax you wouldn't mind living in Sweden, Germany, France, Japan, etc. Right now we're on our way to the Third World."

Uhm, yeah sure, OK.


"Yes, he's definitely dictator material. But he hates the UN and they hate him. Nice, eh?"

The UN is a neutered useless organization, period. BTW, that the US pays the most for.


"To be honest most of the hijackers were Saudis so why not attack KSA?? Forget the figgin' attacks. This is why everyone thinks the USA is a bunch of cowboys.
Man, Barry, you are just too reckless, give it a rest."

I am not saying every solution needs a war, but yes I think Saudi Arabia could use some changes as well.


"I chat with Iranians on occasion. They may not like their government, but they don't want mass destruction in their country either, which is what a US invasion would bring."

Again, did I say invasion?


"I'm withholding judgement on Syria until I get more info about things being moved there from Iraq." What a 'moderate' thing to say;)"

You are right, I am not moderate when it comes to "terrorist" states.


"No, far more dangerous. I think it is important to note that there have been NO acts of terrorism by American Muslims, whereas there have been hundreds by Bible bleeping Christians and a few by the JDL."

Stop drinking the kool-aid man. Did I say anything about "American Muslims"? I am talking about the world here. Not to mention that the hijackers were living here, are they "American Muslims" or "Saudi Muslims"? How many Christians these days do you see beheading the "infidels", blowing up buildings, blowing up Muslim mosques?


"You're very dogmatic aren't you. The majority of American Catholics are pro-choice and ignore idiotic religious prohibitions against birth control and many disagree on abortion. Frankly you sound like a mullah on 'true Islam'- probably a wahabbi type. Feel like issuing some fatwas?"

Yeah, I got a fatwa for ya. All I am saying is that if you don't agree with Catholic dogma, why consider yourself a Catholic?


"Bush is pro-religion on the issues, Kerry is just looking for votes. Any thing that favors the establishment of religion he's for- Born-again Bush is not normal."

Wait a minute. Bush calling church-goers for votes is "pro-religous" but Kerry speaking in Churches is just "looking for votes". Sounds like the hypocratic left to me.


"To show his love for a great 'man of God'and impress the ignorant masses."

Man and you think I'm brainwashed?


"Ah, you've lost all your ideals since Perot. You don't know how to vote properly. You may not think it but Bush is your enemy too--unless you're a rich, religious fanatic that irrationally hates Muslims."

Here is a big reason why I refuse to vote Democrat anymore. Nothing but vitriol and personal attacks. By all accounts John Kerry has more money than Bush. I also find it funny that Kerry wants higher taxes on the "rich" but paid less percentage wise in taxes than I did last year. Bush was the first to stand up after 9/11 and say that we should not burn mosques and attack Muslims in America. He has had dinners in the White House with Muslims. He was pushing for a two-state solution in the Palestinian territories.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Hello Barry,
"Well now I certainly understand why you are voting for Kerry. Let's hurry up and get Socialist so the Government can take care of us and we can all be lazy."
The idea that Americans can get some control over their economic destiny is 'socialist'? Watching you rightist ideologues go into lockjaw labeling is hilarious. Relax and take off your blinders.

"The idea of the progressive income tax is that people should pay taxes based on the ability to pay."

Why? In a flat tax, the "rich" are still paying more. 20% of someone making $200,000 a year is significantly more than 20% of $20,000 a year. Also, the "rich" can no longer take advantage of any tax shelters and so forth. There is also speculation that it would reduce interest rates which we know accelerates puchases of homes and other big-ticket items. You do know that the top 10% of wage earners in this country alread pay over 70% of the total tax burden right? How much more should the "rich" pay? 100%?
In most cases the super-rich 'shelter' 100% of their incomes. Someone has to pay, it should be those who can afford to.
"And the "poor" don't? I would argue that the "poor" actually get more services from the Government than the "rich". Welfare, etc."
The poor get the dole because they have no money. The rich naturally profit from society and don't need dole(though they do get lots of juicey tax breaks). If you understand the above statement, you'll come close to seeing real world economics.

"The UN is a neutered useless organization, period. BTW, that the US pays the most for."



"I am not saying every solution needs a war, but yes I think Saudi Arabia could use some changes as well." The difference is you can't wake up one morning and decide to invade.

"You are right, I am not moderate when it comes to "terrorist" states." How about North Korea..cut the crap.


Stop drinking the kool-aid man. Did I say anything about "American Muslims"? I am talking about the world here. Not to mention that the hijackers were living here, are they "American Muslims" or "Saudi Muslims"?
This is your problem, there are enemies without end. Besides you said 'Muslims attacked us'. Should I give you a pass, like MSM gives idiot Bush a pass.
How many Christians these days do you see beheading the "infidels", blowing up buildings, blowing up Muslim mosques?
What about 'the Lord's Army in Uganda'?

"Yeah, I got a fatwa for ya. All I am saying is that if you don't agree with Catholic dogma, why consider yourself a Catholic?" Being a Catholic, like being a Muslim (or Protestant) is part of you and your whole life, not a checkoff. Leave them to sort out their own lives.

"Wait a minute. Bush calling church-goers for votes is "pro-religous" but Kerry speaking in Churches is just "looking for votes". Sounds like the hypocratic left to me." ush wants to use tax money for faith based initiatives-like Saddam building mosques, that's political religion.

"Man and you think I'm brainwashed?"
Yes.

"Here is a big reason why I refuse to vote Democrat anymore. Nothing but vitriol and personal attacks."
You're a poor liar, Barry.
"By all accounts John Kerry has more money than Bush." He married it.
"I also find it funny that Kerry wants higher taxes on the "rich" but paid less percentage wise in taxes than I did last year."
The idea that some rich people can care about their country always confuses Republicans. These are the so-called 'traitor's to their class' like FDR.
"Bush was the first to stand up after 9/11 and say that we should not burn mosques and attack Muslims in America. He has had dinners in the White House with Muslims." Yeah, 'Guess Who's Coming to Dinner.' Very few Muslims trust Bush.
He was pushing for a two-state solution in the Palestinian territories.
Clinton almost had a deal and I agree that Arafat is totally irresponsibile. Bush is not considered credible and regularly supports the 'father of the intifada', General Sharon. Bush's neglect of the issue is recognised by everyone.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Anonymous,

"The idea that Americans can get some control over their economic destiny is 'socialist'? Watching you rightist ideologues go into lockjaw labeling is hilarious. Relax and take off your blinders."

How am I getting control over my economic destiny through taxation?


"In most cases the super-rich 'shelter' 100% of their incomes. Someone has to pay, it should be those who can afford to."

And again, under a flat tax system, no one would be able to 'shelter' any income. And those living below the poverty line pay nothing.


"The poor get the dole because they have no money. The rich naturally profit from society and don't need dole(though they do get lots of juicey tax breaks). If you understand the above statement, you'll come close to seeing real world economics."

Ya, ya, OK.


"The difference is you can't wake up one morning and decide to invade."

True enough, though I don't hear the same outcry for Afghanistan.


"How about North Korea..cut the crap."

Same problem. What is your point?


"This is your problem, there are enemies without end. Besides you said 'Muslims attacked us'. Should I give you a pass, like MSM gives idiot Bush a pass.

No, you misquote me like a typical propogandist. I said many that have attacked (Bali, Saudi Arabia, WTC (twice), USS Cole, etc) were Muslims. I specifically said that "Muslims" as an entity did not attack us.


"What about 'the Lord's Army in Uganda'?"

What about them? Same problem. I don't give anyone a pass regardless of what religion they hide behind.


"Being a Catholic, like being a Muslim (or Protestant) is part of you and your whole life, not a checkoff. Leave them to sort out their own lives."

Boy, you like having your cake and eating it too don't you?


"Bush wants to use tax money for faith based initiatives-like Saddam building mosques, that's political religion."

Fine.


"Here is a big reason why I refuse to vote Democrat anymore. Nothing but vitriol and personal attacks."
You're a poor liar, Barry.

How does that make me a liar?


"By all accounts John Kerry has more money than Bush." He married it.

So what? Edwards sued for it, what's the difference?


"The idea that some rich people can care about their country always confuses Republicans. These are the so-called 'traitor's to their class' like FDR."

WTF are you talking about? You are the one admonishing Bush for being "rich". Here you are again, trying to weasel out of it again by bashing the Republicans.


"Yeah, 'Guess Who's Coming to Dinner.' Very few Muslims trust Bush."

This is hopeless..


"Clinton almost had a deal and I agree that Arafat is totally irresponsibile. Bush is not considered credible and regularly supports the 'father of the intifada', General Sharon. Bush's neglect of the issue is recognised by everyone."

Here you go again, chicken and egg. The Isreali's held to the cease-fire but the Palestinians keep right on blowing up women and children and Sharon is not suppose to retaliate to try to protect his people? However, I will agree with you that Arafat and Sharon need to go.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Hello Barry,
"How am I getting control over my economic destiny through taxation?"
I'm talking about globalization. LOL, more tax cut nonsense, like when they talk about great middle class tax cuts which actually don't amount to a hill of beans.

"And again, under a flat tax system, no one would be able to 'shelter' any income. And those living below the poverty line pay nothing." You don't get it. The rich benefit from society naturally as Sofie Tucker's "I've been rich and I've been poor and rich is better". There is no level playing field, except to dumbells.

"True enough, though I don't hear the same outcry for Afghanistan."
No one really cares about Afghanistan, the Land of Opium.
"Same problem. What is your point?"
He has no idea what is a real threat to the US.

"No, you misquote me like a typical propogandist. I said many that have attacked (Bali, Saudi Arabia, WTC (twice), USS Cole, etc) were Muslims. I specifically said that "Muslims" as an entity did not attack us."
I am glad you are drawing a distinction..keep it up and don't generalize.
"Bush wants to use tax money for faith based initiatives-like Saddam building mosques, that's political religion."

Fine. Not fine, I am not paying taxes for the Catholic Church or Jimmy Swaggart.

"How does that make me a liar?" Because you don't really believe what you are saying.

"So what? Edwards sued for it, what's the difference?" Edwards, a poor boy turned lawyer earned it.

WTF are you talking about? You are the one admonishing Bush for being "rich". Here you are again, trying to weasel out of it again by bashing the Republicans.
Some rich people want a decent country first because they know that they will come out on top regardless. Republicans are just greedy.

"Here you go again, chicken and egg. The Isreali's held to the cease-fire but the Palestinians keep right on blowing up women and children and Sharon is not suppose to retaliate to try to protect his people? However, I will agree with you that Arafat and Sharon need to go."
Personally, I think if Israel could relocate the wall back to the border and stop hacking up the west bank would help a lot. Time for both sides to pull back the violence and start bargining again. But the fact is Sharon started it when he visited the Dome of the Rock Mosque, declaring it part of Israel.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Anonymous,

"I'm talking about globalization. LOL, more tax cut nonsense, like when they talk about great middle class tax cuts which actually don't amount to a hill of beans."

Uhm, your beloved Kerry talks of "middle class" tax cuts too ya know.


"You don't get it. The rich benefit from society naturally as Sofie Tucker's "I've been rich and I've been poor and rich is better". There is no level playing field, except to dumbells."

And making the rich pay for the poor is a level playing field? I honestly am happy to pay for someone who is unable to work but for those living on welfare because they are too damn lazy to get a job drives me nuts.


"True enough, though I don't hear the same outcry for Afghanistan."
No one really cares about Afghanistan, the Land of Opium.

Interesting comment from a bleeding heart.. ;-P


"Same problem. What is your point?"
He has no idea what is a real threat to the US.

They are all threats. Lets say just as a hypothetical North Korea sells one of its nukes to Bin Laden.


"No, you misquote me like a typical propogandist. I said many that have attacked (Bali, Saudi Arabia, WTC (twice), USS Cole, etc) were Muslims. I specifically said that "Muslims" as an entity did not attack us."
I am glad you are drawing a distinction..keep it up and don't generalize.


"Bush wants to use tax money for faith based initiatives-like Saddam building mosques, that's political religion."

Fine. Not fine, I am not paying taxes for the Catholic Church or Jimmy Swaggart.

I was just saying fine that you feel that way.


"Because you don't really believe what you are saying."

What the hell do you mean I don't believe what I am saying???


"So what? Edwards sued for it, what's the difference?" Edwards, a poor boy turned lawyer earned it.

Oh yes by sueing those eeevviiilll doctors.


"Some rich people want a decent country first because they know that they will come out on top regardless. Republicans are just greedy."

Then why aren't THEY paying more willingly? As I said Kerry paid somewhere around 12% in taxes last year, what did you pay? Same with Ben Affleck commenting about his $1M tax cut check. "I'm not gonna be a martyr for the tax code" What crap.


"Personally, I think if Israel could relocate the wall back to the border and stop hacking up the west bank would help a lot. Time for both sides to pull back the violence and start bargining again."

I don't disagree with you there.


"But the fact is Sharon started it when he visited the Dome of the Rock Mosque, declaring it part of Israel."

Well how far back are we going here? :-) I'd like to see Isreal pull back to the borders of the Oslo accords. I also think making Jeruselum an "International City" monitored by NATO (or the UN I guess) is an intriguing thought.
 
_____________________________________________________________________

Hello Barry
"Uhm, your beloved Kerry talks of "middle class" tax cuts too ya know." Crumbs...but no politicians will ever directly raise takes on the middle class.
"And making the rich pay for the poor is a level playing field? I honestly am happy to pay for someone who is unable to work but for those living on welfare because they are too damn lazy to get a job drives me nuts." Where have you been, Clinton did the wealfare reform thing.

They are all threats. Lets say just as a hypothetical North Korea sells one of its nukes to Bin Laden.
NK is a true rogue state, the source of Pakistan's bomb--left to Russia and China to deal with. Bush couldn't be bothered(NK has no oil).
"Then why aren't THEY paying more willingly? As I said Kerry paid somewhere around 12% in taxes last year, what did you pay? Same with Ben Affleck commenting about his $1M tax cut check. "I'm not gonna be a martyr for the tax code" What crap." Paying minimum tax is the national religion, therefore GOP 'fixing' the system to favor the rich should be blasphamy.
Well how far back are we going here? :-) I'd like to see Isreal pull back to the borders of the Oslo accords. I also think making Jeruselum an "International City" monitored by NATO (or the UN I guess) is an intriguing thought. So why doesn't Bush do something for the worst problem in the ME? Because God told him the cure for all problems is anti-terrorism, not diplomacy.
 
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Anonymous,

"Crumbs...but no politicians will ever directly raise takes on the middle class."

Ah yes but if you look close, Kerry's gonna hit us middle class folks, one way or another.


"Where have you been, Clinton did the wealfare reform thing."

Well I was in California and now Pennsylvania and I haven't seen many changes. It's still a joke.


"NK is a true rogue state, the source of Pakistan's bomb--left to Russia and China to deal with. Bush couldn't be bothered(NK has no oil)."

And what do you propose he do, invade NK? Probably not wise. Unilateral talks? Nope. Multilateral talks. Hey, isn't that what he is attempting to do?


"Paying minimum tax is the national religion, therefore GOP 'fixing' the system to favor the rich should be blasphamy."

Well the "rich" buy things. Someone has to make those things. Hence peons like me have a job.


"So why doesn't Bush do something for the worst problem in the ME? Because God told him the cure for all problems is anti-terrorism, not diplomacy."

I will agree with you that something needs to be done about the Isreal/Palestine situation but I don't know that "God told him the cure for all problems is anti-terrorism".
 
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Hello BPS,
"Ah yes but if you look close, Kerry's gonna hit us middle class folks, one way or another."
If Kerry makes Bill Gates pay his all taxes will you pay yours?

"Well I was in California and now Pennsylvania and I haven't seen many changes. It's still a joke."
You won't be happy until they take the food out of the kid's mouths!

"And what do you propose he do, invade NK? Probably not wise. Unilateral talks? Nope. Multilateral talks. Hey, isn't that what he is attempting to do?"
Right, so you attack Iraq--Number three on the Axis of Evil list? It looked like a cheap shot even then.

"Well the "rich" buy things. Someone has to make those things. Hence peons like me have a job."
You make Mercedes, private jets or yatchs? The middle, working class consumer IS the economy, rich people 'invest'-not consumers.

"I will agree with you that something needs to be done about the Isreal/Palestine situation but I don't know that "God told him the cure for all problems is anti-terrorism"."
Well, God didn't tell him to use diplomacy and he ALWAYS does what God tells him.
 
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Anonymous,

"If Kerry makes Bill Gates pay his all taxes will you pay yours?"

I always pay my taxes but if Kerry wants to jack them up even higher, I may not. :-)


"Well I was in California and now Pennsylvania and I haven't seen many changes. It's still a joke."
"You won't be happy until they take the food out of the kid's mouths!"

Come on man be serious.


"Right, so you attack Iraq--Number three on the Axis of Evil list? It looked like a cheap shot even then."

The problem of NK and the Middle East are different. Iraq may have been more of a strategic move intent on disrupting places like Iran and Saudi Arabia without having to resort to military action. I don't know. I'm not sure any of us know the true intentions.


"You make Mercedes, private jets or yatchs?"

Maybe, what if I did?


"The middle, working class consumer IS the economy, rich people 'invest'-not consumers."

I will partially agree with you here.


"Well, God didn't tell him to use diplomacy and he ALWAYS does what God tells him."

You are hopeless man. :-)
 
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