Saturday, September 04, 2004
Frankenstein
US Administration Contribution to 9/11
A few posts back, I wrote that “I happen to believe that Al Qaeda was founded, recruited, assisted and financed by other American administrations through other short-sighted policies.”
One comment poster responded in what seems to be genuine outrage:
“… Where exactly are you getting this information??? Or, did you mean that because we gave the Afghani people weapons for FIGHT the USSR invasion that this means we "founded" Al Qaeda?? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?? Think about it....That America "founded" and ideology that wants America's death. That we are suicidal??"
Afterwards, I hoped for another post from the same person saying that he had looked into it. I was somewhat disappointed when none came! The person who wrote those words seemed to have felt that the issue was very important. Yet, he or she apparently did not wish to spend 10 or 20 minutes to investigate it.
Last Saturday night (August 28th- 7pm GMT), I was watching a BBC world service documentary on terrorism and Saudi Arabia.
Prince Turki al Faisal, the present Saudi ambassador to the UK, a long-time US ally and, for a long period, chief of Saudi Intelligence, publicly admitted US and Saudi joint efforts that led to the establishment of Al Qaeda. He should know!
I wish the comment poster above would read this post and check the facts again. It would be interesting to know what he or she thinks now!
That particular campaign was not a small incident that could be dismissed lightly. It was a major campaign conducted with the help of Saudi Arabia (funds and recruits), Israel (Soviet weapons from the 1973 war) and Egypt (recruits).
The horrible conclusion is that that particular campaign led to the Taliban rule in Afghanistan and ultimately to 9/11 ! Doesn’t that mean that US officials and politicians were indirectly responsible for 9/11? Reminds one of the story of Frankenstein, doesn’t it?
Has anybody in the US been blamed for that? Has anybody resigned? Was anybody sacked?
Doesn't democracy also mean accountability? Yes, but only when the people are aware!
Finally (and this is the main reason why I brought this subject up again) I further contend that over the past year and a half, another monster is being “created” in Iraq.
American Saddamists are happy to blame the Iraqi people! Neocons are telling us that everything will be fine (some are even saying that everything is fine right now and that "we never had it so good"). They believe that what is happening is so good, that they are already talking about doing the same thing to Iran and Syria!
Will anyone in the States be blamed for anything that this monster will do?
A few posts back, I wrote that “I happen to believe that Al Qaeda was founded, recruited, assisted and financed by other American administrations through other short-sighted policies.”
One comment poster responded in what seems to be genuine outrage:
“… Where exactly are you getting this information??? Or, did you mean that because we gave the Afghani people weapons for FIGHT the USSR invasion that this means we "founded" Al Qaeda?? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?? Think about it....That America "founded" and ideology that wants America's death. That we are suicidal??"
[Please note my reference to the "administration" and the commentator's use of "America" and "we"! Another American Saddamist?]
Afterwards, I hoped for another post from the same person saying that he had looked into it. I was somewhat disappointed when none came! The person who wrote those words seemed to have felt that the issue was very important. Yet, he or she apparently did not wish to spend 10 or 20 minutes to investigate it.
***
Last Saturday night (August 28th- 7pm GMT), I was watching a BBC world service documentary on terrorism and Saudi Arabia.
Prince Turki al Faisal, the present Saudi ambassador to the UK, a long-time US ally and, for a long period, chief of Saudi Intelligence, publicly admitted US and Saudi joint efforts that led to the establishment of Al Qaeda. He should know!
I wish the comment poster above would read this post and check the facts again. It would be interesting to know what he or she thinks now!
That particular campaign was not a small incident that could be dismissed lightly. It was a major campaign conducted with the help of Saudi Arabia (funds and recruits), Israel (Soviet weapons from the 1973 war) and Egypt (recruits).
The horrible conclusion is that that particular campaign led to the Taliban rule in Afghanistan and ultimately to 9/11 ! Doesn’t that mean that US officials and politicians were indirectly responsible for 9/11? Reminds one of the story of Frankenstein, doesn’t it?
Has anybody in the US been blamed for that? Has anybody resigned? Was anybody sacked?
Doesn't democracy also mean accountability? Yes, but only when the people are aware!
***
Finally (and this is the main reason why I brought this subject up again) I further contend that over the past year and a half, another monster is being “created” in Iraq.
American Saddamists are happy to blame the Iraqi people! Neocons are telling us that everything will be fine (some are even saying that everything is fine right now and that "we never had it so good"). They believe that what is happening is so good, that they are already talking about doing the same thing to Iran and Syria!
Will anyone in the States be blamed for anything that this monster will do?
# posted by Abu Khaleel @ 12:36 PM 
Comments:
"chief of Saudi Intelligence, publicly admitted US and Saudi joint efforts that led to the establishment of Al Qaeda"
Whereas both Osama Bin Laden and the US government say that they had nothing to do with each other. Both these people only claim that they received money from Saudi Arabia. So, it is "all" Saudi's fault. And the source you use - someone with a vested interest to deflect blame to someone else.
Here's a couple of questions for you:
1. Why do you think that the US would fund Arabs with a dubious record of actually winning battles and who stick out like a sore thumb, when it could instead fund native Afghans?
2. What percentage of US money do you claim went to funding Arabs, and what percentage went to native Afghans?
3. What percentage of Al Qaeda's money came from Saudi Arabia, and what percentage came from the US?
Or alternatively, why don't you just play to your own prejudices and blame America because you can't bear to take personal responsibility for anything, and you can't stand to see your entire bigotted world collapse, showing that your entire life has been one big lie? It takes a big man to admit as big a stuffup as you have made. How big are you?
And yes, Iraqis have never had it so good as they have right now, and Iraq is on a path upwards, and none of your cynicism is going to stop Iraq from being the best damn country in the Middle East. The security problems will be solved sooner or later, most likely sooner. More IP and ING are coming on line every day.
_____________________________________________________________________
Abu, read this:
http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=364
_____________________________________________________________________
"The common people of the world don't want war"
This is not true in Australia. At the time of war, 57% of Australians wanted to liberate Iraq, while 36% were opposed. You can see these results at www.newspoll.com.au. If you go to www.whitepages.com.au you can ring up some random Australians and ask them why they supported the war. You'll get a variety of reasons, and some of them have changed their mind multiple times. Australians are well-educated, and we value freedom. We know what we're doing. You can also ask them if they would like to free Burma, and see what sort of reactions you get. The opposition party in Australia had been arguing the case for not liberating Iraq. I have spoken to many of the left wing to ask them why they supported such a policy, and it most certainly isn't because they blindly followed the opposition leader either. Don't try to paint the people as sheep. We know what we're doing. Ask us. We ARE the government. That's why we're a free nation. Don't attempt to separate the people from the government. Elections are coming very soon in both Australia and USA, and the pro-war parties are going to win, showing that the parties acted the way the people wanted them to. Democracy is wonderful, isn't it? Time for Iran and Syria!!! Yee ha! The forces of freedom are on the march.
_____________________________________________________________________
Hello Abu Khaleel,
Americans are blaming Bush's for this, but we're being drowned out by the neo-con chorus, represented here by Paul Edwards Australia. I do believe it is largely Saudi Arabia's fault as they were Bin Ladin's primary source of funds, but US has been a full partner for years. Michael Moore
exposed the whole process well in Fahrenheit 911.
The 911 commission has been largely derailed by Bush, but I believe eventually the whole story will be told. Americans do care about the truth, but neo-cons are counter-terrorizing them at every opportunity.
Fallenangel, there are so many astoishing parallels between the Bushies and the Nazis, I don't even know where to begin.
_____________________________________________________________________
"there are so many astoishing parallels between the Bushies and the Nazis"
It used to be astonishing parallels between capitalists and Nazis. Does this mean that the left has grudgingly moved a step closer to modern civilization?
_____________________________________________________________________
Rio de Janeiro, 5 de setembro de 2004.
Dear Mister Abu Khaleel:
It's the first time I'm posting in your blog. My name is Alvaro Frota and, as you can see in my profile, I'm a brazilian researcher and teacher of Statistics with interest in internation politics and especially in the war waged against Iraq. In terms of political thinking, I'm a marxist and I'm affiliated to an trotskyst party in my country. I'm also an English editor of a russian based site about the war in Iraq, named Iraq WarI come here from "Irak Blog Count".
In Brazil, I live in Rio de Janeiro, near some "favelas", ours "Sadr cities". Then, every night I heard some firefights; policy x drug-dealers or drug-dealers x drug-dealers. Just now, as I'm writting, some firefight is in it way. But I just can't figure how is to be in the midle of a war.
Well, in my opinion, it's a nice try to write an Iraqi Letter to America, but I don't think it will works... Average americans, and especially their wannabes, are too arrogant to ever consider the posibility they are wrong.
About your post, I have to say: Bush will winn the elections, supported by the "muslin" stuff in Beslan. Very convenient, isn't?
Aquele abraço!
Alvaro Frota
_____________________________________________________________________
Blame, blame, blame the Americans....
When does anybody else take responsibility? It was the Taliban that decided to treat people like animals and help Al-Qaeda. How are they not to blame for their own actions?
It seems the rest of the world is guilty of apathy, you do nothing and allow evil to manifest in your midst. America & allies are the only ones with the courage to do anything about these idiots - their ideology plainly visible for all to see in the eyes of dead Russian children.
I suppose these poeple "deserved it" eh? Just like Americans did - right? You show yourself to be a fool...
_____________________________________________________________________
While the US helped create the infrastructures and relationships which were used to build Al Qaeda, the ideology already existed. Already in the late 1970s Christians, tourist, and secular Muslims were targetted in Egypt. At the time it was believed that Al Akhwan ('The Brotherhood') were behind these attacks, and the assassination of President Sadat. Since then we have found out that the group which carried much of this out, Islamic Jihad, had separated from The Brotherhood. (check google for Zawahiri for more on this).
_____________________________________________________________________
Sorry about not including my name in the preceding post.
I'm Bob Griffin...
To continue:
Just as the French and British used the American Indians against British and French colonists respectively, and the Germans tried to use Islam against the French, British, and Russians in WW I & II, the US tried to use groups with a natural antipathy towards Communism against the Soviet government of Afghanistan. ( lots of info at http://www.free-definition.com/Democratic-Republic-of-Afghanistan.html --actually got me to re-evaluate stuff, and change some of this post)
The Soviets had invaded Afghanistan (see above link for background and probable reasoning for the invasion), and in the West, we viewed this as the invasion of a free nation by the Soviet Empire (much as many currently view US activity in Iraq). Direct intervention could have led to world war, however there were opposition groups both within Afghanistan and throughout the Islamic world.
---------continued below----- (Bob Griffin)
_____________________________________________________________________
The ideology of the Taliban was already being preached in the madrassas in Pakistan when the Soviets were driven from Afghanistan. A google search on 'deobandi' should lead to information on the background and historical sources.
There is a Wahhabi site which goes into the ideological background of Al Qaeda: http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/
They claim Bin Ladin is primarly a follower of Sayyid Qutb, an 20th century Egyptian radical Islamic revolutionary. (For info on Sayyid Qutb: http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/sayyid_qutb.htm --Interesting stuff. Wish I had time to peruse it myself)
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
_____________________________________________________________________
In regards to Chechnya--there are multiple levels of racism involved, as well as a radical nationalism. The behaviours have been seen before in radical nationalistic groups fighting guerilla/terrorist wars against what they perceive as their oppressor. In other words, it's more 'revolutionary'/nationalist than Islamic. (sounds 'qutbist' to me)
These groups benefitted by the lessons of Afghanistan, where they were used to oust the Soviet Empire from an Islamic nation.
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
_____________________________________________________________________
My name is Mike, I am a graduate student studying Political Science from Iowa, in the United States. I am unashamedly liberal, and hope George W. Bush is soundly defeated in november. I say this so anyone reading knows where I'm coming from. I take issue with whomever said Americans are generally too arrogant. The problem is not that, but instead that average Americans are too apathetic and allow arrogant leaders to do as they wish. I, and many of my friends, believe that Iraqis should shape their own destiny, without reference to a dictator like Saddam, or a larger country like the United States. There are reasonable Americans. We are out there. We love our country, we are proud of what America SHOULD be, what it SHOULD stand for, and are terribly ashamed when it does not live up to this. We are trying. I myself want to be in government. It may seem hopeless, even naive, but I and others like me are trying to make a difference. Maybe someday America can be a helper, a leader, rather than a hegemon. This will continue to be my hope as an American.
_____________________________________________________________________
Australians are members of the tribe of humans. We are not white people, we are humans.
Arabs are members of the tribe of humans.
Arabs are our brothers.
All Australians accept Arabs as equals. We are not racist. The people who said that Australians are racist white people LIED to you.
Australia is in Iraq protecting Arab human rights. We are not trying to steal oil etc etc etc.
Join us. We are proud to be humans. LOOK AT OUR POWER!!!
Americans accept Australians and Arabs as equals too. We are all part of the same tribe. We will protect you. We accept you. All the free world accepts Arabs as equals.
If you don't believe me, ask some Americans. Ask them if they accept you as an equal. I know that they accept you as an equal, for the same reason that they accept Australians as equal!
And we don't care what religion you are either. I am an atheist. In Australia, atheists, Hindus and Muslims (both Sunni and Shiite) are accepted as equals.
Australians and Arabs were allies in World War I and we will never forget the brotherhood forged in blood!!! Thankyou Arabs! We needed your help and you gave it to us!!! The Anglophones are proud to return the help you. We will replace all your terrible leaders with good leaders - leaders that respect your human rights - leaders who are "good hosts" and who will ASK YOU what YOU want (via democracy). We owe you that much for all the help you gave us. We're sorry it took so long for us to return the favour. The reason for the delay is because we needed to defeat Nazism and Communism before we could help free the Arabs.
_____________________________________________________________________
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"chief of Saudi Intelligence, publicly admitted US and Saudi joint efforts that led to the establishment of Al Qaeda"
Whereas both Osama Bin Laden and the US government say that they had nothing to do with each other. Both these people only claim that they received money from Saudi Arabia. So, it is "all" Saudi's fault. And the source you use - someone with a vested interest to deflect blame to someone else.
Here's a couple of questions for you:
1. Why do you think that the US would fund Arabs with a dubious record of actually winning battles and who stick out like a sore thumb, when it could instead fund native Afghans?
2. What percentage of US money do you claim went to funding Arabs, and what percentage went to native Afghans?
3. What percentage of Al Qaeda's money came from Saudi Arabia, and what percentage came from the US?
Or alternatively, why don't you just play to your own prejudices and blame America because you can't bear to take personal responsibility for anything, and you can't stand to see your entire bigotted world collapse, showing that your entire life has been one big lie? It takes a big man to admit as big a stuffup as you have made. How big are you?
And yes, Iraqis have never had it so good as they have right now, and Iraq is on a path upwards, and none of your cynicism is going to stop Iraq from being the best damn country in the Middle East. The security problems will be solved sooner or later, most likely sooner. More IP and ING are coming on line every day.
Abu, read this:
http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=364
"The common people of the world don't want war"
This is not true in Australia. At the time of war, 57% of Australians wanted to liberate Iraq, while 36% were opposed. You can see these results at www.newspoll.com.au. If you go to www.whitepages.com.au you can ring up some random Australians and ask them why they supported the war. You'll get a variety of reasons, and some of them have changed their mind multiple times. Australians are well-educated, and we value freedom. We know what we're doing. You can also ask them if they would like to free Burma, and see what sort of reactions you get. The opposition party in Australia had been arguing the case for not liberating Iraq. I have spoken to many of the left wing to ask them why they supported such a policy, and it most certainly isn't because they blindly followed the opposition leader either. Don't try to paint the people as sheep. We know what we're doing. Ask us. We ARE the government. That's why we're a free nation. Don't attempt to separate the people from the government. Elections are coming very soon in both Australia and USA, and the pro-war parties are going to win, showing that the parties acted the way the people wanted them to. Democracy is wonderful, isn't it? Time for Iran and Syria!!! Yee ha! The forces of freedom are on the march.
Hello Abu Khaleel,
Americans are blaming Bush's for this, but we're being drowned out by the neo-con chorus, represented here by Paul Edwards Australia. I do believe it is largely Saudi Arabia's fault as they were Bin Ladin's primary source of funds, but US has been a full partner for years. Michael Moore
exposed the whole process well in Fahrenheit 911.
The 911 commission has been largely derailed by Bush, but I believe eventually the whole story will be told. Americans do care about the truth, but neo-cons are counter-terrorizing them at every opportunity.
Fallenangel, there are so many astoishing parallels between the Bushies and the Nazis, I don't even know where to begin.
# posted by 
: 4/9/04 9:31 PM
: 4/9/04 9:31 PM "there are so many astoishing parallels between the Bushies and the Nazis"
It used to be astonishing parallels between capitalists and Nazis. Does this mean that the left has grudgingly moved a step closer to modern civilization?
Rio de Janeiro, 5 de setembro de 2004.
Dear Mister Abu Khaleel:
It's the first time I'm posting in your blog. My name is Alvaro Frota and, as you can see in my profile, I'm a brazilian researcher and teacher of Statistics with interest in internation politics and especially in the war waged against Iraq. In terms of political thinking, I'm a marxist and I'm affiliated to an trotskyst party in my country. I'm also an English editor of a russian based site about the war in Iraq, named Iraq WarI come here from "Irak Blog Count".
In Brazil, I live in Rio de Janeiro, near some "favelas", ours "Sadr cities". Then, every night I heard some firefights; policy x drug-dealers or drug-dealers x drug-dealers. Just now, as I'm writting, some firefight is in it way. But I just can't figure how is to be in the midle of a war.
Well, in my opinion, it's a nice try to write an Iraqi Letter to America, but I don't think it will works... Average americans, and especially their wannabes, are too arrogant to ever consider the posibility they are wrong.
About your post, I have to say: Bush will winn the elections, supported by the "muslin" stuff in Beslan. Very convenient, isn't?
Aquele abraço!
Alvaro Frota
Blame, blame, blame the Americans....
When does anybody else take responsibility? It was the Taliban that decided to treat people like animals and help Al-Qaeda. How are they not to blame for their own actions?
It seems the rest of the world is guilty of apathy, you do nothing and allow evil to manifest in your midst. America & allies are the only ones with the courage to do anything about these idiots - their ideology plainly visible for all to see in the eyes of dead Russian children.
I suppose these poeple "deserved it" eh? Just like Americans did - right? You show yourself to be a fool...
# posted by : 7/9/04 5:09 PM
: 7/9/04 5:09 PM While the US helped create the infrastructures and relationships which were used to build Al Qaeda, the ideology already existed. Already in the late 1970s Christians, tourist, and secular Muslims were targetted in Egypt. At the time it was believed that Al Akhwan ('The Brotherhood') were behind these attacks, and the assassination of President Sadat. Since then we have found out that the group which carried much of this out, Islamic Jihad, had separated from The Brotherhood. (check google for Zawahiri for more on this).
# posted by : 7/9/04 8:48 PM
: 7/9/04 8:48 PM Sorry about not including my name in the preceding post.
I'm Bob Griffin...
To continue:
Just as the French and British used the American Indians against British and French colonists respectively, and the Germans tried to use Islam against the French, British, and Russians in WW I & II, the US tried to use groups with a natural antipathy towards Communism against the Soviet government of Afghanistan. ( lots of info at http://www.free-definition.com/Democratic-Republic-of-Afghanistan.html --actually got me to re-evaluate stuff, and change some of this post)
The Soviets had invaded Afghanistan (see above link for background and probable reasoning for the invasion), and in the West, we viewed this as the invasion of a free nation by the Soviet Empire (much as many currently view US activity in Iraq). Direct intervention could have led to world war, however there were opposition groups both within Afghanistan and throughout the Islamic world.
---------continued below----- (Bob Griffin)
# posted by : 7/9/04 9:10 PM
: 7/9/04 9:10 PM The ideology of the Taliban was already being preached in the madrassas in Pakistan when the Soviets were driven from Afghanistan. A google search on 'deobandi' should lead to information on the background and historical sources.
There is a Wahhabi site which goes into the ideological background of Al Qaeda: http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/
They claim Bin Ladin is primarly a follower of Sayyid Qutb, an 20th century Egyptian radical Islamic revolutionary. (For info on Sayyid Qutb: http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/sayyid_qutb.htm --Interesting stuff. Wish I had time to peruse it myself)
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
# posted by : 7/9/04 9:33 PM
: 7/9/04 9:33 PM In regards to Chechnya--there are multiple levels of racism involved, as well as a radical nationalism. The behaviours have been seen before in radical nationalistic groups fighting guerilla/terrorist wars against what they perceive as their oppressor. In other words, it's more 'revolutionary'/nationalist than Islamic. (sounds 'qutbist' to me)
These groups benefitted by the lessons of Afghanistan, where they were used to oust the Soviet Empire from an Islamic nation.
Be Well,
Bob Griffin
# posted by : 7/9/04 9:42 PM
: 7/9/04 9:42 PM My name is Mike, I am a graduate student studying Political Science from Iowa, in the United States. I am unashamedly liberal, and hope George W. Bush is soundly defeated in november. I say this so anyone reading knows where I'm coming from. I take issue with whomever said Americans are generally too arrogant. The problem is not that, but instead that average Americans are too apathetic and allow arrogant leaders to do as they wish. I, and many of my friends, believe that Iraqis should shape their own destiny, without reference to a dictator like Saddam, or a larger country like the United States. There are reasonable Americans. We are out there. We love our country, we are proud of what America SHOULD be, what it SHOULD stand for, and are terribly ashamed when it does not live up to this. We are trying. I myself want to be in government. It may seem hopeless, even naive, but I and others like me are trying to make a difference. Maybe someday America can be a helper, a leader, rather than a hegemon. This will continue to be my hope as an American.
# posted by : 9/9/04 7:21 AM
: 9/9/04 7:21 AM Australians are members of the tribe of humans. We are not white people, we are humans.
Arabs are members of the tribe of humans.
Arabs are our brothers.
All Australians accept Arabs as equals. We are not racist. The people who said that Australians are racist white people LIED to you.
Australia is in Iraq protecting Arab human rights. We are not trying to steal oil etc etc etc.
Join us. We are proud to be humans. LOOK AT OUR POWER!!!
Americans accept Australians and Arabs as equals too. We are all part of the same tribe. We will protect you. We accept you. All the free world accepts Arabs as equals.
If you don't believe me, ask some Americans. Ask them if they accept you as an equal. I know that they accept you as an equal, for the same reason that they accept Australians as equal!
And we don't care what religion you are either. I am an atheist. In Australia, atheists, Hindus and Muslims (both Sunni and Shiite) are accepted as equals.
Australians and Arabs were allies in World War I and we will never forget the brotherhood forged in blood!!! Thankyou Arabs! We needed your help and you gave it to us!!! The Anglophones are proud to return the help you. We will replace all your terrible leaders with good leaders - leaders that respect your human rights - leaders who are "good hosts" and who will ASK YOU what YOU want (via democracy). We owe you that much for all the help you gave us. We're sorry it took so long for us to return the favour. The reason for the delay is because we needed to defeat Nazism and Communism before we could help free the Arabs.
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